after BE posts his notes, there is not much left for anybody to add. thank you BE for doing all the work, letting us off the hook!
but my main take from these two episodes is as follows: HE gets HER, SHE gets HIM. and it is not just a temporary, a one time thing, a on the surface, an external glance into each other… but rather fundamental, deep, profound, soul penetrating connection, like soul mates experience. although it is only a few exchanges about it, it seems to me like this connection and it’s further development is going to be the true main character of this drama. it is in a way sad for both of them, never before experienced, melancholy, but o so powerful with so much potential that it sends chills down my spine. love this drama!

It occurs to me that the bugging is a very necessary plot device. Because Ji An is keeping such close tabs on Dong Hoon, she is privy to his quiet moments of decency – standing up for Ji An in front of his brothers and colleagues even though she’s not there. Threatening the condo owner. Quietly heroic yet secretly so. His own wife has no idea because he’s always putting on a calm, completely ordinary front for her even though he might be going through a lot.

[…] | E3&4 | E5&6 | E7&8 | E9&10 | E11&12 | E13&14 | […]

Episode 4
For me this episode marks a real sea change in the drama. The first three episodes strike me as set up. And one particular feature that has become quite important in this episode is having had the lens of petty crime vs corporate corruption suspense, I already accept the bug Li Ji An has planted on Dong Hoon, even though that is the most outrageous thing she has done to him so far.

Especially outrageous as she uses the over heard conversation, or Ki Geom does to throw Dong Woon off her track by throwing suspicion because of how he was hijacked off to the coast and he had this particular rooftop convo with Dong Hoon, he now must also mistrust his friend of two decades, Dong Hoon. Like the business of getting the photo of the kiss, as smart as Ji An might be, this is bound to backfire on her if it all gets spelled out to Dong Hoon, whom Dong Woon advises to trust no one.

But that is small fish to fry because, we finally come to grips with the fact that yes indeed, Li Ji An did kill a man. In the 8th or 9th grade. That man was the father of her current harasser (ah, the why of him too), and she did it to protect herself and her poor grandmother from being continuously physically abused. But then how this bugging device planted to ruin Dong Hoon turns out to completely alter and awaken Ji An to what we already know, Dong Hoon is a truly honorable fellow, one she can identify with, admire, be touched by. IU is just spectacular in this episode registering this increment by increment change in her estimation of Dong Hoon.

His confrontation with Sang Hoon’s job place abuser triggers her memory of the killing in ways that make us sympathize even more than the reveal in her fight with Ki Yong, and considerably more than the reveal of Yoon Hee with Jun Young (she frightens the two of them, but as we can tell by his conversation with his workers, Dong Hoon without knowing the details has a real insight into her, just as she, even while lying to him about her motive for the kiss, has seen enough of him to perceive his disquiet better than most, but we will get back to that). But the insight she gets is that Dong Hoon understands the heart of the matter–not the personal humiliation but that family witnesses it. Her grandmother witnessed her being beaten, and then was beaten herself. It is the offense to the loved one that is unbearable, that can lead a person to violence. Dong Hoon, this guy up till know she has thought to play, has steel in him she recognizes in her self. And then she gets to hear him wield his power as a man who has real skills and clout in the world. Something to respect, admire, he gets the guy to apologize. Then, she hears him in his breathing pay the cost, a cost she knows well, standing in the street bent over. All this the bug provides her, but even more, in the final scene when Dong Hoon is quietly talking with Gi Hoon about how she gets him, and he, her, she hears the vulnerability he feels, the sadness because of it. And she is visibly and personally touched by that vulnerability. It is the kind of vulnerability one has for a lover alone, a soul mate alone, and it moves her.

Dong Hoon is a man suffering from what Buddha called dukha, his First Noble Truth. To live in this world is to suffer disquiet–yes old age, infirmity, death as well, but a persistent disquiet, as if one were born in the wrong place, born of wanting more, or have the sensation of having lost something–for Buddha it’s being blinded by this wanting and losing one’s true nature to it. Dong Hoon is an everyman, a South Korean everyman with those strong familial values, those values about relations between sunbaes and hoobaes, with values of what can be taken and washed over and what cannot, and a Buddhist everyman as well. He’s an old building, on a river that has been covered up, who when he collapses will certainly disappear.
He knows entering the building he must fire Li Ji An; what she has done is unacceptable, not to mention personally threatening, in a professional relationship. He knows that he cannot spell out why to that contemptible piece of excrement, Managing Director Yoon, and ruin this girl’s life. He knows that four men badmouthing a subordinate and a girl drinking after work is something that should make a person’s skin crawl. He knows Gi Hoon is quite liable to do something that will put himself in prison, and he knows what he must do to take care of the problem. He can see Li Ji An has some sort of an infection from her injured hand that may well have caused her collapse, and despite what has transpired, still has the compassion to worry over her to her face. There are many ways in which characterization can be revealed, but my favorite moment in this episode with regard to Dong Hoon, comes from a character we are just being introduced to: Jeong Hui, a woman, we can see already is beloved by the entire group of old guys at her bar. When he wakes her–ah does Lee Sung Kyun ever put more tenderness in that mellow and langorous tone of which he is master–as she dozes off while her clientele is loudly carousing, she looks at him and with such sweet affection lightly slaps him across the cheek. We know what she thinks of Dong Hoon, and we agree–such a sweet man, something beginning to dawn on Li Ji An as well.
In Buddhism, it is the bringing to light the first noble truth that sets a person on the path of enlightenment–the realization that there is a hole in our souls, which we tend to discover, as Buddha did by witnessing the suffering of others. Up till now, I was unsure of where show was headed, but I get it now. These two have something important for one another. Let’s see how this unfolds; this is a human story about people lost in the middle of their lives with it dawning upon each that an other might hold…what? I want to know.

Just a quick comment on Yoon Yee and the cuttlefish, yes it’s one of those annoying things that her husband does but her over reaction there is because she almost revealed herself. He came in and she said you found the vouchers? And he was like how did you know and she had to admit that she had reached out to Joon Young. Dong Hoon said some unflattering things about Joon Young and that’s when everything just swirled together – her guilt over the affair, not liking Dong Hoon’s contempt towards Joon Young and then that darn plastic bag! The whole thing is very off, she is obviously reacting wrongly to the whole voucher situation cos she has got the inside story from Joon Young. Instead of being relieved she’s annoyed at Dong Hoon. Maybe because he has a track record of not sharing or telling things to her that a husband should?

Episode 3
So…to begin with a couple of lenses with which I am watching at this point in time. First of all, while show may well know where it is going, and I wish to assure first time watchers, it does, up to this point it appears to me as if this is one of those kdrama genre mashups, and that is how I am viewing it, primarily it being one of the office corruption/espionage variety and a biting satire of office politics and class with a petty criminal emphasis, with a bit of family and neighborhood slice of life thrown in. In this episode the intrigue element seemed on highest register to me.

First of all, however, I should say, looking at this episode from this lens offers me some advantages. First of all, insofar as Li Ji An is concerned, people can say what they want about her character, but if I approach her as an antihero in this milieu, it allows me to simply witness rather than make judgments about her atrocious behavior.

In this particular episode Li Ji An, blackmails Dong Hoon (first for meals, and a lot of them, right after she is fired from her night job for trying to take home leftovers, perhaps just so she can eat well, and perhaps too, to set Dong Hoon up for scandal so she can make off with her deal to ruin the lives of two men she does not know for Jun Yeong, whom we must also note she does not really care for, and then for an outrageous sum); she stalks Dong Hoon to his home and then steals his mail, and not just his mail, but his wife’s as well; she stirs up Dong Hoon against Jun Yeong for reasons that are not really very apparent; she puts a bug on his phone that can (is this really possible) listen in on his every moment as long as it is turned on and on his person–seriously, this!; and finally, knowing he is extremely awkward both personally (she has overheard him speak of her as being a kid just like his brother’s daughter, and in doing so, comment on how sick Sang Hoon’s fantasy is. and because of their professional relationship, accosts him on the street to have him kiss her.

No, this was not a nineteen year old girl with an affection challenged first boyfriend desperate for a kiss; but a street wise petty criminal plying for an opportunity at blackmail and worse. Li Ji An is not a person you want to meet in your real life, and her pretty and innocent looking face makes her all the more dangerous. BUT, if I see her as an antihero (not as some angel or the like, puh-lease) in a corrupt world, then my take on her changes.
First, there is this creepy guy, who will go to the lengths of paying her granny’s elder care center bill,,,just to have his hooks in her more deeply than he already has, and we get to see all that tough girl front she uses to shamelessly leverage Dong Hoon–I do not know how much that meal she scarfs down in front of him near the end of episode 3 might cost there, then, but man, that was an expensive feast for a family of four, one, rubbing it in his face, she takes her own sweet time plus gulps of soju one at a time to finish–whatever the reason, that loan shark Ki Yong can break her down. We can see where she picked up her stalking and blackmail predilections. We are sympathetic with her predicament, even if given what a good guy Dong Hoon appears to be, what she is doing is pretty shady. The framework of the narrative allows this.
Her smarts too really make her a magnetic character. Where she learned about the problem and taboo of bribery in corporate South Korea (paying attention to the guy running the employment agency? strict memorandum upon employment? the day in/ day out spooky paranoid office atmosphere?), she is astute in her observation of Dong Hoon when the bribe arrives at his desk.
Her audacity, the audacity of this entire plot–ah the lower class petty crime class drama, what a player! And then the outrageous commentary when Dong Hoon, in a moment of self pity confesses to her that everyone he hates becomes a success. Oh ho, she tells him, then please hate me with all you are worth. There is a wonderful sense of dry humor in this comment, but also a knowing, and for the first time a bit of compassion, when she promises to hate him too. One can almost see the wheels turning inside Li Ji An, well, then maybe it is a good thing I am effing this guy’s life up some–maybe we’ll make each other successful this way.

Other things that come to mind: I love when Dong Hoon stands up at the table, after she intimates a possible erotic liason–Dong Hoon really does think of her as a girl, not a woman–what does your father do young lady? takes his money back, and says (to himself, to Li Ji An), basically, effing A, girl, I am too old, this is too much monkey business for me to be involved in and I am not gonna be played by a punk like you. I loved that moment with him, and I love when he puts Sang Hoon in his place fantasizing on his behalf of hanky panky with Ji An, with his, how would you like an old married guy like me putting moves on your daughter. This business of age and power difference, filial loyalty all of these things seem deeply embedded in Dong Hoon’s sensability, a kind of South Korean everyman in the middle of his life beset by challenges. He cannot communicate with his wife; his son is in some far away boarding school, it seems, so there is no normal family life in his home to settle around the child; his brothers are in deep doo doo, putting enormous strain on his mother, and for reasons he does not understand he has the growing anxiety that his boss, someone with whom he has a natural distaste–bad chemistry–might be trying to get him fired from his job. On top of this, the temp whom he hired–on the whim that her noting she liked to run said something about her to him–whom he at first thought had saved his bacon is now blackmailing him, and for a considerable amount. Forget it, I will rewrap this salad in one of the million plastic bags we have on hand in a roll, put it back in the fridge, forego dinner, and apologize. Who needs all this?

I love mom Yo Soon’ss monologue at the dinner table with Sang Hoon and Gi Hoon after Sang Hoon tries to sneak back in the apartment and eat (her) dinner while her back is turned. The heartbreak of her situation, what a strong person, expressed as exasperation. Those brothers, everyone are smart guys, including Sang Hoon, and what, there she is the oldest, almost fifty, washed up, in debt, despised by his wife, the youngest already a washed up artist, the two sleeping on the floor under the same blanket like little kids in her home where she still makes them meals. Go Doo Shim is just wonderful in this scene and this show. She is like the emotional bottom line for everyone, the barometer.

I also like how Jae Shul really delivers the economic reality of this generation of men. He once ran a pharmeceutical operation in a big corporation but has been reduced to cleaning excrement off the steps of apartment buildings to get by, a job so onerous, his wife walks off the job, and forces him to sell even that business for the chancey opening of a restaurant, which at least does not carry the equivalent social shame attached to it. How Sang Hoon, who when he tells his wife he will pay his debt, however pitiful he often appears, he seemingly really means to do, gets a business, which Gi Hoon after his run in with the film director, is ready to take up himself as well. Strike up the brothers theme music.

I did get a kick out of Ae Ryun confronting the three brothers and ask them if they are dating. And yet, how infantilized each must feel at this moment in time, Dong Hoon, thus, by this young temp employee at his office, but his brothers cause, university or no university, they are grown men living off their aging mom.

Boooooo for Jae Sung that sniveling, sychophantic, supervisor. Just booo hiss.

I am not so much into Dong Woon, played by that wonderful and ubiquitous K Drama character actor Jung Hae Kyun. I do not care what side the guy is on, he is an officious individual, who because of his animus for Jun Yeong, however warranted or not, is going out of his way to plant Dong Hoon, who is very susceptible, into a frenzy of paranoia. If there is one reason not to resent Li Ji An all that much, is I hardly care about Dong Woon, and power hungry conniver, one level up in smarts from Jae Sung, but almost as venal.

And who is Ki Beom to Ji An anyway?

More on four later.

I want to punch Mr. Yoon in the face!

I noticed a difference between Netflix and Viki subtitles. On Netflix, in a meeting room JA tells DH: “I wondered how someone could look so bored …?” On Viki, the same phrase is translated as : “You look like you are sick of life”. I thought that the difference is pretty significant. I wonder what DH really said.

Ep 3

This ep felt quite expository in many ways. My suspicion is confirmed: there is indeed a child in photographs nobody has mentioned yet… unusual. A lot of details are explained, like Ji An noticing the vouchers were a bribe and why vouchers are used instead of money.  Ji An  is quick with her hands and great at orchestrating crises. I’m already feeling sorry for Dong Hoon. There is a sexual misconduct charge coming his way…

Ep 4:

This episode dealt with abuse and humiliation and this is where our ML showed us ( when he squared up to that thug who made his bro kneel) the kind of hero he really is: intelligent, passionate and civil. What a gent. Ji An’s admiration for him increases, as she hears his breathing quickening through the hacked phone, and him almost collapsing after the confrontation … Great acting.

So we find out that Dong Hoon’s son is abroad. I wonder about that one… I wonder whether this son would have made Ding Hoon smile more and be a bit happier if he were around. Why isn’t that child living with his parents? I imagine that question will be answered soon though…

It’s funny how that photo with the fake kiss with Dong Hoon didn’t work out for Ji An in the end and how  she wants to take it down from social media… Is she worried about losing her job or worried about coming across as a pathetic opportunist to others? She doesn’t seem to be a girl who cares about what others think though…

I’m also surprised at how she got a receipt from the violent dude… How do you do something as civilised as writing a receipt and handing it over after beating the living hell out of someone? 😳

And who is that manic pixie dream type coming from Thailand with goodies for all those middle aged drunken boys… I wonder whether this lady will add something relevant to the story… Curious. Let’s wait and see. 

What a beautiful way to end this episode though! Dong Hoon  confesses the connection between him and Ji An to his bro, and how it makes him sad… My heart! Ji An tearfully listening to this confession through Dong Hoon’s hacked phone is impactful. His words are sad yet hopeful, I think. Perhaps their connection will bring them together to fight all that injustice that surrounds both: together contra mundum. 

And that beautiful sondia song and the very ends… how haunting.

“It’s easy for rich people to be nice.” Ji An said in the preview for ep 5. She is too right… Even though the very fact of her uttering those words indicates she’s re-evaluating her own far from nice behaviour… Layered and classy writing.

This show is very good indeed but I cannot seem to get over the spy stuff. They seem so out of character for 2 twenty year olds (unless they have had Healer’s training, I guess). I really need some kind of lens for that. Without asking for spoilers, could someone tell me if there are more spytimes ahead?

This is the first time I’m deliberately restricting myself to 2 episodes a week to keep to the rhythm of the group watch, normally I binge at one shot if I like the show. But watching ahead will affect my ability to comment without spoilers. So far I’m keeping to it. Enjoyable pair of episodes! I enjoyed the smart writing, little unexpected outcomes such as office Mean Girl figuring out what the tiptoes meant instead of broadcasting the scandal, trying to blackmail Ji An and then getting owned! Also very unexpected but very satisfying – Dong Hoon going to the developer’s office, at first we think he couldn’t possibly have it in him to intimidate the thug, then he very cleverly uses the leverage he has – to declare not just that building unsafe but calling into question all of the developer’s projects and bringing down the wrath and fines of the building authority on him – structural engineering as the new superpower indeed!!

Really enjoyed kfangirl’s insight that Dong Hoon is prepared to roll over in his own life but not when it comes to his family. And that this is yet another commonality he has with Ji An, protecting family comes first.

The show is always surprising us with something, and in these episodes I love seeing:

1. Jung Hee’s bar and all the other men be introduced as a tight-knit, supportive community. The first time I watched the show I hadn’t seen that coming. Makes you realize that in the earlier episodes the Park brothers were just floating from bar to bar in order to be together, but they were missing out on hanging with their other homies.
2. I LOVE Dong Hoon’s fire when he confronts the condo villa owner. Definitely did not see that coming my first watch, after having watched him be quiet and put-upon the first 3 episodes. When the camera focuses on him at home, with his hands together and just brooding, you know something big is going to happen. Then he goes to that office and relies on his structural engineering knowledge to “persuade” the guy to go with the fruit basket. Such a perfectly-constructed sequence. And then to see Dong Hoon’s joy when he sees Sang Hoon’s lightness and happiness at Jung Hee’s later is beautiful. It was all because of Dong Hoon and his willingness to fight for his brother (and mom).
3. For Dong Hoon to confront Ji An after the kiss is mature and sets the tone for his character as well. He’s not willing to let her get away with it. But you can tell she totally rattles him. 😀Already, this is not a typical pujangnim – temp worker relationship!

Oh, and one more thing. These episodes are already giving such a lesson in the nuances of social hierarchy and relationships.

Like, it’s obvious what a titanic figure the Chairman is within the company; both as an elder, and as the founder of the company. And he goes wandering through the halls with the non-obvious but express purpose of asking Dong-hoon to go to dinner with him, a gesture to indicate (probably) a sort of apology and approval all at once (for the whole scary “getting caught up in this shady bribe scheme and doing the right thing” incident). And then Dong-hoon…just turns him down! You can just feel how that sort of thing just isn’t done, except he does it! (You can gauge by the various reactions that it’s the sort of thing where you’re expected to, if you have a prior “appointment”, cancel the appointment, unless it’s like, your daughter’s wedding or a parent’s funeral or something. Of course someone tries to laugh it off like “engineers, what can you do?” and the Chairman is like “yeah, I know all about engineers…”)

Or look at Mean Girl (sorry RA, luv ya, but it is the role). She’s clearly operating on an unspoken but very real hierarchy, where she’s a full timer with job security, so she can dump on the temp worker pretty much as she pleases. The member of Dong-hoon’s team seems to have a similar view of things.

Or the brothers and their cleaning service, the constant effort they and everyone are expending to tell themselves that it’s good honest work, set against the creeping disappointment of feeling how they’ve fallen so far–this is what they’re using their college educations for? Nobody spends more than 20 years at a big company anymore, before they’re fired or let go (a lament voiced by several of the neighborhood crew of middle-aged guys that we’ve met so far). (I get the sense that this must be a real issue with real resonance in SK in recent times).

I’m not doing great at describing it all, but I’m really struck on this watch, observing how everyone is acting, the subtle rules and norms that they are navigating, and it’s kind of fascinating.

Oh, and I forgot to say, the appearance of Jeong-hui there at the end of ep. 4! I think I like, more or less, all of the characters we’ve seen so far (that aren’t obvious villains). But Jeong-hui looks really cool — runs the friendly neighborhood bar, it looks like? Goes off to Thailand for a few months to chill, then comes back to tend bar some more? Cool, cool.

In the scene where Dong Hoon confronts his brother’s humiliator, I harkened back to one KFG’s t-shirts, and to paraphrase, “Forget the cape, I have a structural engineer.” Dong Hoon is so badass in a middle age, middle class kind of way, and I loved that beat.

I’m still surprised at the explicitness of the violence between Ji An and Kwang Il. It’s not often that you see a woman being beaten in such a vicious way in kdrama, and now it’s happened twice – not counting flashbacks to when Kwang Il’s father beat her, too. What a life! It underscores why she is willing to do anything to escape this tormentor.

The final scenes in Jeong Hee’s bar are exuberant. This is the time these (mostly) men escape the dreariness of the lives they think are diminished (I’m haunted by Lee Jae Chul’s words to Mom, that menial jobs are the lot of men in their 50s who lose their corporate jobs), and become young and important again in fellowship with friends from the ‘hood. I’m curious again about Jeong Hee, this woman at the center of their revelry. I want to envy her respected status, but it’s hard not to notice right away her melancholy(?)

Really loved these two episodes. The show stands up well after multiple re-watches, I must say, because it’s focus is on the characters and how they react to things happening. While I do know the details of the plot and of course enjoy the scam/takedown of Park Dong Un, the best part is watching the characters react to each other.

Things that stood out for me:

• That takedown of Park Dong Un: the club uniform bugs me everytime I watch this show. It’s too neat and a rare misstep by the writer, imo, but I let it go. I wonder why they sent him to the East Sea – was it an accident after listening to the recording? I feel sorry that Dong Hoon is implicated through no fault of his own, but this clearly reminds me and shows that Ji-an is on nobody’s side.

• Sang Hoon’s humiliation hurts every time I watch it. And to be caught by mom.. ouch. And poor mom too, caught in a moment she can’t do anything about. She can’t charge in to save Sang Hoon and scold that man, nor can she comfort him as it would further humiliate him. As a younger parent, I never thought about how I would have to relate eventually to my son when he’s an adult but one day I will have to. I love how Dong Hoon stood up for his brothers though. It restored Sang Hoon’s pride and dignity while teaching the man a lesson. So well done.

• ”I’m sad that she knows me”. How true that is. They’re both sad that the other somehow managed to cut through their mask and defences and saw right through them. It’s hard when someone sees you so deeply because you become so vulnerable, I think that’s where Ji-an reacted so angrily when she heard Dong Hoon say that she had a hard time in the past. That wiretapping is surely going to backfire right? It’s going to be hard to betray a guy who you know and knows you and is a nice, good, decent guy.

An continuing aspect of the show is the absolutely suffocating atmosphere when there are cameras nearly everywhere. Ji An and her brother have learned to become acutely aware of where the cameras are and how to manipulate their images when to their advantage: i.e., by citing them as an excuse for not returning the phone until it suited her, or to selectively “edit” the record of events to create a false narrative when necessary. CCTVs appear in so many dramas that I’ve taken them for granted, but here they are practically a character in the show, not to main a big component of JA’s toolbox.

Conversely, those living more comfortable lives essentially ignore the “staff”, like the janitor, which hands Ji An a very useful set of eyes to collect information, which she again uses as a defensive tool when needed.

One more quick point. Last time, I mentioned how tightly written the show is, and I’m still impressed. I typically struggle with plots that depend on corporate shenanigans or find them dull, but they’re clear enough here and there’s enough intrigue to back them up (what’s is Dong Hoon’s beef with Joon Young? And I’m kinda curious as to the motives of Chairman and son….) that I am definitely engaged.

Wow, really a lot packed into these episodes, and so far they are holding up really well on rewatch value–just as absorbing and interesting as the initial time through.

Ji-an is definitely morally gray, no question about it. She’s serious about earning her 20 million won, and since, as we see, she’s smart and gutsy, I’m…pretty worried for Dong-hoon at this point.

In fact, she and her friend work so smoothly together in executing the Director Park take-down that I seriously wonder whether or not they’ve run similar scams together in the past. My money is on probably so? I don’t think you get that slick and confident running that sort of operation of it’s just a first time one-off. (I had the same thought about his club waistcoat, both times I’ve seen this, and I still don’t have a great answer. Sometimes a slick scam comes off just because the writer is on your side).

Let’s be clear, Ji-an tapping Dong-hoon’s phone is wrong, full stop. It’s invasive and bad. But she does seem to immediately be learning things that she maybe didn’t expect to… I have a slightly different take on her hearing Dong-hoon say he pities her because she obviously had a tough childhood. I’m not sure she’s offended, so much as that he’s expressing an obvious truth about her (tough childhood/life), just as she did to him earlier in the conference room… and then he expresses compassion or understanding, and I think it throws her off, she doesn’t know what to make of it or how to deal with it, and she reflexively acts defensively, which comes out as abrupt anger and calling him a “bastard”. But now I think they’ve both got something to think about.

And one last thing (although there’s much more fodder here to chew over): I purely love how Ji-an cut down Ryu Abell’s office mean girl when she tried to play status games and petty blackmail her with that knowledge of the staged kiss pic. That’s the sort of ruthlessness I can get behind. It’s like mean girl showed up with some nasty snark, and Ji-an in effect pulled a knife and said “back off or I will cut you.”

[…] For the main discussion of episodes 3 & 4, which only deals with spoilers up to the point of the group watch, go here. […]