Welcome to the Open Thread, everyone! Thanks for joining in on this group watch of this very special show! ❤️
As I mentioned in my announcement post, these are my notes, exactly as they appear on Patreon.
ZERO SPOILER POLICY
We will be adopting a ZERO SPOILER POLICY for this Open Thread, except for events that have happened in the show, up to this point.
This includes, but is not limited to, how characters &/or relationships develop, later in the show.
The spoiler tags don’t work in email notifications, therefore, please take note that WE WILL NOT BE USING SPOILER TAGS FOR THIS OPEN THREAD.
We need to protect the innocent! 😉
Without further ado, here are my reactions to this set of episodes; have fun in the Open Thread, everyone! ❤️
My thoughts
Episodes 21-22
E21-22. Well, this was quite an eventful pair of episodes. I likey. 😁
I’m slightly disappointed that as we open the episode, we don’t get to revisit where we last left off, with Buyi showing up behind Shaoshang and catching her in an embrace, as she turns to avert her eyes from Prince Xiao’s execution.
Not that I wanted to see Prince Xiao get beheaded a second time, certainly. It’s just, that would’ve allowed me to see that moment of hyper-proximity between Buyi and Shaoshang all over again, and that’s just the kind of stuff to give me the squees. 😍
It’s all good though, coz we do get a moment of protective hyper-proximity, when Buyi puts himself between Zhaojun and Shaoshang, as a human shield of sorts.
That feels pretty intimate, in the sense that it feels like he’s very much on Shaoshang’s side, and is ready to take any blows for her, if necessary. Melt. 🫠
And then there’s the way he turns to Shaoshang and speaks in low, rather intimate tones, telling her to wait for him in the carriage, and ending off with, “听话,” (tīnghuà) which literally translates as “be good,” and is a phrase typically used in a more personal setting, between parents and children, or between lovers or spouses.
Because it’s a phrase that is reserved for more personal relationships, it does give me a bit of a thrill, to see Shaoshang acquiesce without protest.
It makes me feel like, on some level, she’s accepting his assertion of that personal aspect to their connection, even though she probably just thinks it’s wiser to get out of the way, with Zhaojun being so angry.
I really appreciate the conversation that Buyi and Shaoshang have in his carriage afterwards, in that, Buyi only gives Shaoshang information, but doesn’t try to impose his opinion on her.
Instead, he tells her whatever she decides, she’s right; that kind of unconditional support is truly one of the swooniest things about Buyi’s regard for her.
Beyond the swoon, I really do think that this conversation is quite pivotal, in Shaoshang’s eventual decision to call off the betrothal with Lou Yao.
After all, this is THE point at which she starts to see things in a different perspective; that General He’s sacrifice has literally prevented death and disaster for so many people and their families, unlike the scene she’d witnessed in Hua County.
When Shaoshang eventually announces her decision, there’s a new gravitas and maturity about her, where I can almost see the people around her doing a double take, and it does gratify me greatly, to think that Buyi has had a significant part to play, in helping her arrive at this point.
I think the most impressive thing, is when Lou Yao gets all upset about the breaking off of the betrothal, and Shaoshang takes him aside to talk with him, only to return with Lou Yao in a completely different frame of mind.
Even without listening to what she’d had to say to Lou Yao, I’m sure it must be impressive to the adults present, that Shaoshang would be able to talk Lou Yao around in such a complete manner.
One minute, he’s calling foul about being sacrificed as a scapegoat of sorts, and the next, he’s sobered and talking about doing things for the greater good.
It’s clearly completely Shaoshang’s influence, and I’m a little bummed that she doesn’t get more overt recognition for this, particularly from her parents.
As for the conversation itself, I’m touched that Shaoshang remains so earnest and heartfelt in how she shows Lou Yao another point of view.
She is so empathetic and caring towards him, even as she tells him that she wants him to be able to love Zhaojun, and yet, at the same time, be able to stand up to her, if she tries to bully him.
This feels like true care, even though I’ve never been convinced that she actually loves him in a romantic sense, and it feels like a sensitive, fitting way to wrap up their relationship.
Elsewhere, I have to say I really do love how Buyi doesn’t ever hesitate to speak up on Shaoshang’s behalf, even if the insult is tangential.
When he overhears his stepmother and Lady Ruyang talking disdainfully about the misfortune of the He family, Buyi’s quick to set the record straight, that the Emperor desires the marriage alliance between the He and Lou families, and thus the marriage should not be criticized.
Also, it’s honestly so deadpan-cool of him, to flatly state that he’s not interested in dining with either of them, HA. That’s so against decorum, and he doesn’t bat an eye. 😁
Even though there’s no mention of Shaoshang, I do get the feeling that he’s tangentially protecting her, since the breaking off of her betrothal to Lou Yao is mixed up in there as well.
On that note, I just wanted to say that although Shaoshang hasn’t actually had deep romantic feelings for Lou Yao, I can see why she’d be withdrawn and out of sorts after the breaking off of the betrothal.
The alliance between the He and Lou families was made at the expense of her marriage agreement, after all.
She’s officially the “loser” in all of this, although we know that she’s actually winning on all fronts, since she’s got the devotion of our stoic general. 😁
It’s kinda like what the divination says, that Shaogong does for Shaoshang, where the result states that Shaoshang will find a better man after losing Lou Yao – that is, until new guy Ban Jia kicks his divination askew.
I have no idea how this divination works, but I highly doubt that Shaogong’s rueful statement, that Shaoshang will now suffer ill luck in love, will come true. 😁
I’m not at all surprised that the petty socialites try to get on Shaoshang’s case and provoke her to a fight, during that gathering at Mt. Tudao, but what I’m pleasantly surprised by, is how Shaoshang no longer allows herself to rise to the bait.
It really feels like Shaoshang’s matured a fair bit, during the course of recent events, and I’m proud of her, even though this growth has involved some pain.
I like that instead of stooping to their level, Shaoshang simply makes off on her own, to explore and entertain herself.
..Which, of course, is how she ends up crossing paths with Buyi again.
I love how Show finds ways to allow them to meet, even under the most unlikely circumstances. And I love that Show makes these meetings make actual narrative sense.
In this case, it makes sense to me that there might be a secret meeting between political players, so close to a royal procession to Mt. Tudao, and it makes sense too, that Buyi might be there, monitoring the situation.
The entire scene where Buyi’s hanging from the roof with one hand, and holding onto Shaoshang with the other, is so startlingly badass. 🤩
The fact that this aggravates his old injury means that it must have been really painful for Buyi to hold and support Shaoshang singlehandedly like he does, but he pushes through anyway, and only cares about whether she’s been hurt, never mind whether he’s been hurt.
And then, his only focus is on keeping her safe, not only in the here and now, but also, in the future, with the way he coaches her that she was never there, and never heard anything.
Augh. His devotion is such melty stuff.
I’m low-key amused by how Qiqi ends up seeing Song in such a compromising manner, though I’m disturbed by the idea that their horses likely run off the cliff.
Will she really end up “taking responsibility for him” – which is code for marriage?? 😁
I have to admit, though, that I’m wayyy more interested in the fact that Buyi and Shaoshang ride up to the camp together, much to the delight of Wingman Emperor.
I’m just rather bummed that we don’t get a scene of Buyi and Shaoshang riding up together sharing a single horse, to everyone’s dismay. I would’ve loved to see the looks on their faces – particularly the faces of those petty socialites, heh. 😁
It did make me chuckle to see Wingman Emperor keep fishing for information on how Shaoshang is indebted to Buyi, while Clueless Dad apologizes, saying that Shaoshang hadn’t meant to fall off the cliff. Pfft.
All in all, I’m glad that Wingman Emperor insists that Dad and Shaoshang show their gratitude to Buyi, because where we leave off the episode, we’re all poised for a dad-daughter visit to Buyi at his residence.
YES. I mean, you do know by now, how I feel any time these two get to spend any kind of time together in the same space, yes? 😅
Episodes 23-24
E23-24. My goodness. I’d had no idea what an eventful set of episodes this would turn out to be. I know I just said that our last pair of episodes was eventful, but now those pale in comparison.
Seriously. I did NOT think that by the time we finished this set of episodes, that Buyi and Shaoshang would have a marriage agreement! Wow!
First, though, I think it’s a bit of a silly gag that Buyi’s always unhappy whenever anyone – ANYONE – gets in the way of him spending alone time with Shaoshang.
Logically, it would make more sense for him to be nice to Cheng Shi, since, if he plays his cards right, Cheng Shi would become his father-in-law.
But no. Buyi’s just so fixated with wanting to spend alone time with Shaoshang, that he’s grumpy to whomever gets in his way, whether it’s her father or the Emperor in question. Which, I suppose, is pretty endearing too, when I think about it. 😁
It’s quite funny how Buyi uses the jade pendant as a cover story, to get some proper alone time with Shaoshang, while having his men block Dad from coming back in to his residence, ha.
Even though their conversation is short, I do like the moment when Buyi says, with thoughtful gentleness, that Shaoshang’s the only person who asks him if he’s in pain, with no care for whether he’s still able to shoot an arrow or ride a horse.
When he talks about things like this, I can see why Buyi’s got such a soft spot for Shaoshang.
She cares about him as a person, whereas everyone else seems to care about his ability to function as a general.
One of the things I find most amusing about Buyi’s affection for Shaoshang, it the way he always takes the opportunity to demonstrate closeness between them, to others.
Like, when Shaoshang tells Wang Ling that she’s at Buyi’s house to thank him for saving her life, Buyi sagely agrees, saying, “That’s right, I got injured for her sake.”
Tee hee hee. He really jumps at every opportunity, which makes him such a badass and such a dork, at the same time.
On a more serious note, it looks like there’s a much deeper story around the demise of the Huo family, and I’m sure that’s going to become a bigger arc, as we go, because of course Buyi’s intent on investigating it and getting to the truth.
However, I have to admit that my interest in this arc is cursory at best, because I’m basically here for the OTP. 😅
This set of episodes, the highlight has to be Shaoshang’s visit to the palace with her parents, because that turns into quite an important event, as we know.
I find Shaoshang artlessly endearing, when interacting with the Emperor and Empress, and even though we know that she dislikes studying, you can see that she’s improved a great deal, to be able to answer the Emperor and Empress the way she does.
She’s still the Shaoshang we know and love, and she’s also still kinda rough around the edges, but there’s a new layer of wisdom about her, that wasn’t there before, and I like this very much.
Also, I have to admit I laughed out loud when Shaoshang is instructed to sit closer to the Emperor so that he can talk to her, and she gets up and tries to carry her own seat over to him.
Hahaha. Truly, only Shaoshang, eh? 😂
It’s also nice that Shaoshang makes a friend in Jitong, but it’s such a bummer that she gets on the Fifth Princess’s bad side, and ends up being bullied by all the petty socialite ladies, before the family feast begins.
The way they kick her and throw porcelain at her, so that she’d fall on the broken shards, is truly appalling, and I was SO GLAD when Buyi shows up to sweep her off her feet, right into a princess carry.
YESS!!! 🤩🤩
And then there’s the way he immediately sits her down safely, retrieves her shoe, and then insists on putting it on for her.
My subs say, “Allow me,” which is very gentlemanly, and probably very much within Buyi’s intent, based on his tone, but what he’s says, literally translates to, “Sit well,” or you could say, “Sit tight.”
It’s in the same vein as, “be good,” from earlier, in that it’s an instruction, not a request, but it’s an instruction that comes with a lot of care and protectiveness.
Importantly, this would imply to anyone who hears him say it, that the relationship between him and Shaoshang, is pretty close.
And of course, the idea of that pleases me greatly, since all the bullies have a collective crush on Buyi. Take THAT, ladies. 😏
I’m SO SURE that Buyi’s fully aware of what he’s communicating to the ladies present, because after helping Shaoshang with her shoe, he makes sure to take her hand – her HAND! 🤩 – as they walk through the rubble back to the banquet hall.
And, he’s not shy about kicking the shards of broken porcelain out of the way either. There is anger in those kicks, and I’m sure he’s showing that anger on purpose as well. Which, GOOD, y’know?
Plus, the way Shaoshang goes back to her pancake with intent, picks it up and blows if off, feels like SUCH a great almost-insolent pairing for Buyi’s sarcastic congratulations to both the Third and Fifth Princesses. 😁
On hindsight, I’m more and more sure that in seating Shaoshang next to him at the feast, Buyi already had in mind to ask for the Emperor to broach the topic of marriage for him, right then and there.
I feel like seeing her getting bullied like that only strengthened his resolve to protect her, and I believe that in establishing that she’s his betrothed, he’s making it such that it becomes easier for him to protect her.
Therefore, I think that even though Buyi’s definitely been wanting to marry Shaoshang for a while, he didn’t actually go there intending to bring it up, and that the bullying incident had acted as a catalyst for him to bring forward his plan to ask for her hand in marriage.
It’s so cute how Wingman Emperor gets all excited the moment Buyi makes his request, because we all know that Wingman Emperor’s been waiting for this in no small way. 😁
I’m bummed that Yuanyi speaks so poorly of Shaoshang in order to get her out of the marriage agreement, because, even though I know that she’s doing this in order to not offend the Emperor, it still hurts to hear her talk about Shaoshang like this.
And, it’s not hard to see that Shaoshang’s hurt by her words as well, even though Shaoshang probably does understand why Yuanyi’s talking like this.
In the end, I do love how Shaoshang decides to handle the situation.
In fact, I do think that the way she handles it, is a result of her new, more considered, wiser perspective on things. I don’t think the old Shaoshang would have handled the situation as well, honestly.
I love how Shaoshang acknowledges that Yuanyi is telling the truth about her, and that she would not make a good wife, and then turns to Buyi and asks, “Even so, do you still want to marry me?”
And – AUGH!!! – Buyi’s answer, “Of course,” is SOOO much better than a simple yes! It’s basically saying, “You didn’t actually need to ask, because there is no other answer, as far as I’m concerned.”
I just love how gentle he is, as he then adds on, “I never knew how wonderful I am to you. Similarly, I’m sure you don’t know that in my eyes, Cheng Shaoshang is the best lady in the capital.”
And, when Yuanyi tries to interject, Buyi is resolute, as he tells her not to interrupt him. Oooh.
“Everyone says to marry a gentle and virtuous lady. Madam Cheng is fierce in battle and doesn’t lose to men on the battlefield. But off the battlefield, you are also in love with General Cheng. It’s clear to see that every couple is different and not as everyone says.
Shaoshang might not be an obedient lady in everyone’s eyes. But to me, she is the whole capital and the whole world’s best lady indeed.
She is pure and decisive. She dares to love and hate. She’s the only one who can walk alongside me in this world.
I will only marry her in my life.”
Swooon. The way he only has eyes for her, is just breathtaking.
And he does literally say, “If it’s not her, I will not marry,” which is so decisively resolute and romantic, at the same time. 😍🫠
And Shaoshang says yes!! Ahhhh!!! I literally clapped my hands, I was so pleased!
Also, I’m inordinately tickled that Princess Yuchang faints in response – but Wingman Emperor’s in such a good mood that he basically doesn’t care. Hahaha!
I do feel Buyi’s wistfulness though, as he looks in Shaoshang’s direction, but can’t make eye contact with her, because she’s too busy dealing with the looks from her parents.
This should be a joyous occasion, but sadly, our newly-betrothed couple don’t even share one meaningful gaze. Sniffle.
Back home, I can understand why Mom and Dad are upset; it’s because they’re worried about Shaoshang’s future in the Ling household.
But, I’m with Shaoshang on this.
What she says is true; previously, when she’d wanted to marry Lou Yao, Yuanyi had talked about Buyi. So now that Shaoshang’s agreed to marry Buyi, it feels hypocritical of Yuanyi to now be against the match.
And, Shaoshang makes a good point, that this was her only choice, if she didn’t want to offend the Emperor, or have her father lose his position and move to the countryside.
Elsewhere, Princess Yuchang’s kicking up a fuss, and Lady Ruyang and Buyi’s stepmother agree to help stop this marriage from happening.
In my mind, though, is there really anything they can do? This marriage agreement was brokered by the Emperor himself, after all? (Which, muahaha. 😁)
I was moved by our young star-crossed couple’s discussion about ending their engagement. They were both so mature in putting the legacy of the He family over their own dreams of lifelong partnership. True to form, they spoke respectfully and lovingly, and listened to each other. Then they took hands and went to report their decision to the adults. Respect. They may not have been ideal lovers, but they were good for each other and, ultimately, grew up significantly together.
Like others, I appreciate that Show gave Lou A’Yo a dignified exit to the relationship.
I hadn’t entirely remembered the comedic bits of the show, which I enjoy so much. The first part of the Cheng’s visit to the palace had me on constant chuckle. The timing of Shaoshung’s untutored greetings to the Emperor and Empress, which are just a moment behind her parents’, creates a comic echo (who hasn’t been there?) Going into her bow late, and her repeated premature popping up, with eyes darting side to side, made me snigger. When the Emperor asks her to come closer, and at first she simply leans in on her elbow, followed by her attempt to carry her kneeling bench to a spot before the royal couple, had me lol. Really, Zhao Lu Si is so talented!
And in that scene, I also loved the interplay between her parents. Their exchanged glances, and their individual expressions of horror, amusement (Dad’s at least), and desperation were well done. Loved it all. But while this made me laugh, I was also aware that in another drama, Shaoshung’s behavior could have endangered her whole family. What a great dramatic tension.
Based on our comments and on my own reactions, the show is serving up a mix of historical and modern perspectives, that makes it difficult at times to assess what to think of Ling Buyi.
I guess I do know what I think of him. He’s a well-drawn, complex character with a smoldering romantic appeal. He is loyal, brave, strong, intelligent, and he garners loyalty and respect. Yes, he is also domineering, angry, and legit dangerous (aka violent.) Yes, he is just this side of ungovernable, and he is rude and sharp around the edges. I think all of this is consistent with the privilege of his military acclaim, and especially of the Emperor’s favor and protection. He is, in that sense, a man of his time, if on the edges of acceptability.
When you juxtapose this on modern sensibilities of what a good partner/ML should be, these things are… problematic. In Red Flag territory. I don’t think, though, that Show is asking us to see him as a perfect prospective partner. He’s got serious baggage. But, in addition to the problematic characteristics, Ling will also: protect Shaoshung with his life. He will admire her endlessly. He will support her unfeminine interests. He will, and does, love her, for who she is. In that way, he is a strong ML.
In his world, he’s been waiting for Shaoshung for a long time – since he first saw her on New Year’s Eve, over a year ago. He’s seen even more dangerous military assignments since then. He almost lost her to Lou A’Yo. So, he’s, er, um, aggressive in his proposal. Respectful? No. Romantic? Kinda? Understandable, to me? Yes.
Honestly, the rest of the show is very fuzzy to me. I’m very curious to see what I think of Buyi over the next several episodes.
I second what you say, Leslie. Zhao Lusi is a marvelous actress!
I also agree with your take on Ling Buyi. He’s a red flag, but not to Shaoshang. Leaving everything aside, he would never, ever harm Shaoshang, and I guess for the period this drama is set, this is a big deal already.
Yes, @Leslie @Natalia Zhao Lusi as Niao Niao is phenomenal!! She can make us cry, then make us snort with laughter in the blink of an eye! Or side-eye! Honestly, she was made for this character!!
Your assessment of Ling Buyi is fair, Leslie. I will find it very interesting to see how you find him in later episodes. He is very complex, and fiercely protective, of his men, mum, and of course Niao Niao. I can’t say anything else because it would spoil it. I do love him, I do. And Wu lei does a thoroughly excellent job of making me love him more than I might otherwise – swoon! 🙂
My impressions:
Buyi not only defies decorum, I think he’s completely acting out of his times’ social rules. Sometimes, I actually feel second-hand embarrassment, like, come on, how much an ancient Chinese dad can take a man being all over his daughter.
Lou Yao-I really like this kid. I am actually grateful to the show for finding a meaningful way to get him out of Shaoshang’s life, instead of killing him off in a tragic accident.
The cliff-hanging moment was badass yes, but at the same time totally unbelievable. I decided to just roll my eyes and let it roll too!
And, finally: on this second watch I realize that the real reason that I loved this show so much was undoubtedly the wonderful Niao Niao. And that scene where,after being bullied, she defying picks up her bread again… For me, it’s the most in-your-face moment in all dramas I have watched!
@Natalia I agree!! I think knowing how Ling Buyi’s story plays out makes this rewatch an entirely different experience. Obviously, without giving anything away, I’m reacting to those swoony moments… with a greater caution 😳
The novel is very much from Niao Niao’s perspective and while she’s a bit different and the drama tries to balance the leads’ storylines, I can’t help but watch the drama version from Niao’s Niao’s POV too. I think Zhao Lusi adds so much to her character and all for the greater good. Dusting off that “commoners” millet bread was a happy moment of defiance, and elevated with so much aplomb by Lusi’s delivery 😍
Ele, I think we must now inaugurate Zhao Lusi’s fanmom club – of course without shading on our Wu Lei one!
Firstly, can I just say how much I’m enjoying the group watch!! It’s great reading @kfangurl’s notes, and then the excellent comments below. I’m having a truly lovely time reading the novel translation at the same pace as watching the show. It’s very immersive and happy 🙂
And, crumbs, the show (and novel, come to that) moves at quite a pace, doesn’t it! I like that, though. The slower first few episodes really laid some solid groundwork so that we feel invested in Niao Niao particularly.
It may be of interest that in the novel, Niao Niao declines the marriage to A’Yao and is then immediately summoned to the palace where Ling Buyi proposes – a lost engagement and a new one in one day!! I think it shows how absolute Ling Buyi is to not miss his chance and get Niao Niao before anyone else snaps her up (such as, ugh, “Teacher” Yuan Shanjian 🙄 I’m with Beez, what does Yang Yang – and all those silly squealy, hehem, fangirls, see in him?!!)
Also, side-note, in the novel the Chengs know that Ling Buyi is likely to propose so they already prepare to refuse by explaining how unsuitable Niao Niao is for him – therefore, Niao Niao is in full agreement, eager to not marry General Ling, and so isn’t hurt by her parents’ character assassination. She wants them to do that! But Ling Buyi, through force of will, railroads Niao Niao and her parents and, backed by the indulgent Emperor, he gets his way.
Honestly, Ling Buyi is really incredibly domineering and completely focussed on both some sort of revenge for his mother’s family and also our Niao Niao. It’s half-swoony, half-scary! I keep flitting between heart-eyes and side-eyes 😍😒 but because it’s Wu Lei and he looks so handsome I generally end up 🫠😅
Ele, where do you read the novel? I think I may need to read the chapters towards the end too – the show suffered some hasty editing towards the end to make it shorter, so the novel might help with that (having said that, it does remain very enjoyable to the end – it is just that some scenes fly by!).
I read the translations by Lady Kelpi – though they are ongoing (so she hasn’t got to the end chapters yet!) There may be other complete ones out there.
Love Like The Galaxy |星汉灿烂, 幸甚至哉 by Guan Xin Ze Luan |关心则乱 – Lady Kelpi Translations
So my main reaction to this block of episodes is “alright, now we’re cooking with gas!” Real stuff is really happening!
I came to appreciate the Lou Yao interlude at least more than my initial reaction, so I am pleased that he was afforded a relatively graceful and honorable send-off, in which everyone had the chance to demonstrate their growing maturity and sense of self-sacrifice for the greater good, etc. etc.
And yeah. Impressed by the “surprise proposal in front of Emperor, her parents, and half the court” gambit. Wasn’t expecting that! Where do we go from here?
I agree Niaoniao is showing signs of increasing maturity, the more so as I was forcibly struck these episodes that she is just 15-16 years old, which… wow, that’s still really young, you know? (I know we knew this more or less from the beginning; it just struck me again here thinking through what’s happening).
Adding to KFG’s thoughts about NiaoNiao accepting the proposal – when she says this is her only choice – I took it to mean not only because of the Emperor’s pressure of ruining the family but also the fact that she’ll have very few offers considering her families lack of noble background and her lack of education and etiquette training (her “faults” as it were). I also took it to heart what she said after Mom’s listing of her inadequacies, she, like Buyi was goaded by the presence of the [w]itches. In the end, I do feel NiaoNiao has a pressing need to get out from under the domineering authority (and hurt) of her mother at all costs.
Beez — I think this is a good read of where Niaoniao was coming from. I may be wrong, but I got the distinct feeling that although she may not be “in love” with the general at this point, or even all twitterpated with his intense broodiness, on some level she is drawn to him and not particularly opposed to a union, even if she is taken by surprise.
I was actually infuriated on Niao Niao’s behalf that Ling Buyi sprang the surprise proposal on her and her parents – in front of the Emperor no less. Talk about forcing your hand! That scene was so difficult to watch, firstly I thought Ling Buyi really should have courted Niao Niao and gotten her consent first before getting the parental figures involved. And then put on the spot, Niao Niao’s parents, who firstly know she doesn’t like Ling Buyi that way, and secondly have their own considerations for thinking it not a good match, go into the most excruciating dance of refusing the marriage without endangering themselves or their family. First the mother give the world’s most devastating “Buyer Beware” warning on her daughter (heartbreaking!) and then the father offers to resign his post! And with every word the Emperor is getting more and more mad.
With all this happening, I think Shaoshang handled it beautifully. Firstly acknowledging that General Ling is so way out of her league that she never even thought of him that way, and even acknowledging the truth in her mother’s words rather than throw her mum under the bus, and yet still exerting agency for herself by asking Ling Buyi directly “Even after hearing all that, do you still want to marry me?” His reply is swoony stuff but alas she has to sort out family stuff first!
KFG’s episode notes helped mollify me that he felt pushed to stake an official claim on her because with everything that’s been happening the bullying of Shaoshang is just increasing. And maybe that’s the decisive general part of him – I see a problem, I fix it. Never mind that I actually overlooked that I skipped the romance part of it to get to the proposal!!!
I agree that LB sprang that proposal on NiaoNiao but in his defense 😆 how could he not think he’s the prize and that NiaoNiao would be pleased as punch to have him what with princesses et al throwing themselves in 2-inch deep ponds to set up rescues, etc. That’s why I was so tickled that he actually “realized” – in his “reality” that NiaoNiao thinks he’s Mr. Wonderful too. In his mind ” Of course, she thinks I’m wonderful. She’s just been hiding it!” 😆
Beez, reading your post, I first thought “throwing themselves in 2-inch deep pond” is an interesting expression, I have never heard of if before. And then I was, wait, they really did throw themselves in 2-inch deep ponds! 🤣🤣
😆
Elaine, remind me: this is your first time watching or a re-watch? The reason I am asking is that for me it is a re-watch and I kind of amazes me that the first time around I hadn’t really notice that Ling Buyi is a walking red flag. Like, in the proposal scene, I had found his words, gaze, whole demeanor absolutely swoon-worthy and never paid to much attention to the fact that he actually sort of forces Niao Niao to accept him, by using his nuclear arsenal, aka the Emperor!
Hi Natalia, this is my first watch actually! Hmm interesting that I’m picking out where General Ling oversteps, guess despite Leo Wu being very handsome I still feel at this point in our story Niao Niao is not yet that into him, so I did feel he was jumping the gun with his proposal.
Actually I do find Ling Buyi and Niao Niao’s arc a bit similar to Elizabeth and Darcy’s dynamic in Pride and Prejudice, where he fell head over heels for her first, but from her perspective he was extremely arrogant and also sabotaged her sister’s potential marriage to Bingley. Darcy’s first proposal to Elizabeth failed miserably lol.
For LLTG, at this point Niao Niao is not as prejudiced against Ling Buyi as Elizabeth was against Darcy, but I still feel she’s not reeeally into him that way yet. Yes her heart probably fluttered when he saved her life, but he also has a lot of downsides e.g. he is a military man risking his life all the time, and he is very serious and forbidding (and she thinks he has been more judgemental of her over the course of some past incidents than he actually was)
You know me, I love a Pride and Prejudice comparison!! I will just say Mr Darcy’s, um, stiff demeanour comes from a pride in his breeding of ‘I know better because I am morally and intellectually superior than most people, even my friends’ and a disdain for the same (mistaken) arrogance in others. Ling Buyi’s is much more about his dislike of anyone connected to the betrayal of his mother’s family where his idea of right and wrong is often not actually morally correct – even if it can be satisfying to see him belittle those who bully Niao Niao. Ling Buyi is more like Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights, twisting the arm of anyone not doing as he sees fit, sometimes twisting the arm off… Mr Darcy would never actually twist off an arm 🙂
@Ele – I like your assessment that Ling’s idea of right and wrong is often not actually morally correct. I don’t really include that perspective in my treatise, above. Maybe because it feels like it’s the third rail of MLs, and I’m squeamish. Flawed is ok. Immoral is not. How can I like him if he is a villain, as well as a hero? But a lot a villain.
Food for thought. It’s a quandary that sets up Show to be more than a historical romance…
@Leslie I seem to love these morally ambiguous male leads – I’d marry an antihero over a plain old hero any day of the week!! Not villainous, just not totally good 🙂
Whoo-ooo, Ele! I think I’ve finally sworn off bad boys in my old age. 😉
@Leslie – I’m with you. I have a soft spot for bad boys but a villain totally turns me off but… that being said 😉, as far as Ling Buyi is concerned, I make excuses for him by saying to myself that it was a bloody time, etc. 🙄😗
Let’s watch to see if he is ever unjust or punishes/harms the innocent. Then we can rank his villainy on a boyfriend vs hero scale.
@Beez – Me too, me too. I coddle Ling Buyi, citing his troubled childhood and the mores of the time, left and right. 😆
“Villainy on a boyfriend vs. hero scale.” Love it! I’ll keep score.
So far where does he rank with you so far? I’m thinking around 8 on hero scale (with a couple of “be wary” deep pinkish flags) while also 4 in villainy based on what we’ve seen so far?
I think our scores are pretty close, Beez. I’d probably give Buyi an 8, too, on the hero side, both professionally – he’s masterful – and vis à vis Shaoshang – he appreciates her completely and he’s saved her life a couple of times. Notably, the derring-do of hanging off the side of a building, with the woman in his arm and gripping a tile roof with his free hand. 😆
I do think there are a couple of Red vs Deep Pink flags, however. For instance, his comfort (and facility) with violence. Because of that, my villain score would be a little higher, a 5 perhaps. If the violence was all in the name of country and duty, it could be accommodated. But Ling Buyi has made himself judge and executioner a couple of times, in service to his personal goals. He appears immune to influence or input, which starts to feel like he’s tipping into self-designated god territory. Danger! Danger!
Now that you remind me of all the times he’s rescued NiaoNiao, I’ll have to tip the boyfriend rank up to 9. He would be 10 if it weren’t for that controlling bit regarding eating the bread in the carriage.
God complex? What? Is that any different than how most guys think of themselves with zero life threatening rescues? 😂
@Beez – 🤣😂
Oh Leslie, a 5 on the villain scale?? In Ling Buyi’s defence he has done a lot to protect the common people right? His fighting was against invaders and rebels. I think the most egregious thing we’ve seen him do is the knifing of the rebellious general, but I saw it as hastening the execution that would have been coming anyway. This rebel’s actions led to the death of honourable General He who was just accompanying his daughter to her wedding and suddenly had to fight an insurrection. The rebel’s son also later got executed. So my eye brows were raised but I didn’t find it beyond the pale. He certainly wanted to execute his revenge personally so the bloodthirsty aspect of the killing was uncomfortable but I didn’t find it beyond the pale I guess I’m saying. Accepting influence – I think he does accept influence cos he’s observing Shaoshang and learning from her, and he’s keen to be with someone he admires who challenges the status quo and is not afraid of him, rather than a gentle submissive lady. But yes he is much more stubborn and domineering than some other male leads at this point but he listens to Shaoshang… Oh dear I’m talking in circles and I’m also not sure if I buy that he’s not a red flag. Haha. So far he’s been moral and hasn’t bullied or ill treated innocents so I’m on board.
@Elaine – All good points. I feel similarly conflicted about Buyi – red flag, pink flag, no flag? 5 on the villain scale?
On the one hand, I see most of his choices as valid responses for the times – it was a brutal world. And I don’t fear how he would ever treat Shaoshung. Do I think he’s only acted morally? It’s very hard to lift off my 21st Century goggles and evaluate it. Gut says mostly yes, rule of law/allegedly more civilized time says… on the bubble?
Buyi’s just such a strong presence wherever he goes, that he comes off as menacing, or even ruthless. I think, in fact, he is menacing. His code and ethics are totally self-defined, which is admirable in many ways. But in other ways it creates fear and a sense of foreboding danger. At the very least, he has the power to act on his personal code and ethics, pretty much unfettered. That kind of power feels unsafe, to me.
I don’t know if that adds up to him being a villain or villain-like, or just scary. So maybe 5 on the villain scale is too strong… he’s not morally evil. But, he doesn’t feel completely upstanding either.
For now, let’s just say he makes me uneasy in the ML role.
AND, I have to say that I think that’s great. His character is complex and nuanced. It’s fun to chew on the questions we’ve raised about him in this set of threads.
Looking forward to seeing how the next set of episodes informs my/our opinions.
I just had a funny (to me) thought. Just because Ling Buyi is Leo Wu to us, doesn’t mean he’s not Darth Vader to the show’s other characters. 😆
Very true. 😂😂😂😂😂
That tickles me pink that Ling Buyi says “I didn’t know I was that wonderful to you”. I mean, he has to know that all the women of the land he think he’s Mr. Wonderful but he must think NiaoNiao has done a good job playing her cards close to her vest when the truth is what he thought before all this marriage proposal conversation – she hasn’t thought of you in any lingering sense at all – is closer to the truth! tee hee
NiaoNiao blowing on that bread and picking it up 🤢 fills me with admiration for the hardships that have made her who she is, as it reminds me of the defiant little girl whose candy was stomped into the dirt. Her picking up that bread that was thrown onto the comparatively clean ground was like saying y’all think you’re hurting me but y’all are nothing!
Same Beez, like you I was like Yucks! But also, in admiration at Shaoshang’s guts and chutzpah! Her picking up the bun definitely was her version of giving the finger to the mean girls and saying you haven’t broken my spirit! I’m still eating my damn bun!
Yes! That’s such a good shout out back to the trampled sweet scene. Thank you, @beez!
EP21
In the end it was Ling Buyi’s words in the carriage that changed NiaoNiao’s mind. I wonder how much of that was calculated by him to have that effect?
NOTE ADDED AFTER READING KFG’S THOUGHTS:
I disagree with KFG regarding Ling Buyi not trying to influence NiaoNiao. I think he’s a master manipulator and he knows he cannot push her without getting the opposite reaction from what he wants and so instead he plays her like a violin or a puppet master as we see the outcome of his “non-influencing” conversation. Funny how I didn’t feel this way in my first watch and only have these dark thoughts about Buyi after reading KFG’s thoughts (again). I had stars in my eyes during the first watch. Whereas now I’m still pro OTP but the rose has peeled off my glasses some.
Lou A’Yao states “we promised never to leave or abandon each other”.
NiaoNiao did Lou wrong. So apparently she had a vow with him to not abandon each other and yet she closed him out completely from her decision. She came to a decision to withdraw from the marriage without discussing it with him. He finds out about her change in outlook in front of everyone!
Lou A’Yao is so malleable. Ling Buyi would’ve told everybody to go jump in the lake – he’s marrying NiaoNiao!
I also note that while NiaoNiao decries the unfairness of it all, never once does she mention her love for Lou A’Yao. 🤔
Buyi got those old biddies told off! 😆
EP 22 NiaoNiao diverting Big Scholar Head by pointing him out so the young ladies would block his following her reminds me of reading years ago about George Cooney saying that he and Brad Pitt notified the press & public where Leonardo DiCaprio was staying so that the two of them could leave their hotel in peace. 😆
Poor lovelorn Cousin WeeWee (although what she sees in Big Head Scholar… 🤷🏽
NiaoNiao’s 3rd brother talking to Cutie Pie Ban about a “romantic killer”. Is that some known standard divination thing or is he unknowingly talking about our killer Ling Buyi since after all, he was trying to do NiaoNiao’s future marriage before Cutie Pie Ban knocked over his rocks. (Speaking of serial killer vibes – Third Prince.)
Awwww. Cutie Pie Ban likes WeeWee.
Love how proud NiaoNiao’s 2nd brother is of QiQi as she baits Wang Li at the archery competition.
Love how Royal Consort Yue gets her point across with the sour fruit and then putting the Emperor out because she’s heard what he’s complaining about a thousand times.
EP 23
Did Ling Buyi really expect NiaoNiao to come alone to his manor? Ancient protocol? How unrealistic is that? And even more so that Dad would leave her there alone?
And if Dad had not left NiaoNiao alone, would the [w]itches of Eastwick have felt free to start in on their insults in front of her father? I know the story is designed this way but as sweet as NiaoNiao’s father is, I find both of her parents guilty.
If NiaoNiao is Third Ms. Cheng, and Cousin WeeWee is Second Miss Cheng, then who is first?
On Ling Buyi’s persuasion of Niao Niao – Beez, I respectfully disagree.
I think everything came together for Niao Niao with regards to the matter of He Zhaojun and Lou Yao.
1) Emperor’s intent – even though the Emperor didn’t issue an edict, it was interpreted by all the noble families that he would prefer it very much if Lou Yao could marry He Zhaojun in accordance with General He’s dying wish. Niao Niao and her parents knew they were expected to gracefully exit the engagement. On the flip side if they don’t, the Lou family will be pissed with them, and the Emperor too, presumably.
2) Who is to take care of He Zhaojun and her brother (and their inheritance) – this point was told to Niao Niao by Yuan Shanjian aka smirky scholar. As much as suitors might want to pursue He Zhaojun, she has to beware of those who just want to gobble up her family’s inheritance. She needs a husband who will become de facto head of her family and take care of things until her little brother comes of age and can assume leadership of the He family. If I remember correctly, Yuan Shanjian explained that the Lou family is ideal because they are not a family of warriors and hence won’t try to swallow the He family army. (And Niao Niao also knows that Lou Yao is not personally ambitious, and is honest and honourable, and would thus be well suited to this caretaker role)
But even with the above very concrete, logical reasons for Lou Yao to marry He Zhaojun, Niao Niao is not satisfied until the next 2 factors are satisfied.
3) He Zhaojun promises Niao Niao that she has changed, and she will not ill-treat Lou Yao cos now she appreciates how she needs him. And I’m sure the hair-raising execution scene also showed Niao Niao viscerally how bad He Zhaojun is hurting after the loss of her family. Thus raising Niao Niao’s compassion for her.
4) Ling Buyi points out how General He’s sacrifice protected the people so they didn’t have to suffer what those in the Hua County did. Maybe he did so because he knows how important the common people’s lives and welfare is to Niao Niao. And it is also a Chinese cultural thing, to value the community and duty to the country etc.
Also, something which tells me Niao Niao made up her own mind and wasn’t simply “persuaded” by any 1 factor above, or Ling Buyi’s persuasion, is when she talks to Lou Yao, she doesn’t just parrot or repeat what others have told her, but she comes up with her own reason for Lou Yao to marry He Zhaojun:
5) Lou Yao specifically has built up family bonds of feeling with General He and his sons over the years. So he almost has a quasi-son status with the family and thus some filial obligation to take care of General He’s remaining children (i.e. He Zhaojun and her little brother)
6) She doesn’t want Lou Yao to go back to the same relationship dynamic as before, but this time stand up for himself, know his value and role and not get bullied by He Zhaojun anymore.
Marriage for duty, and country. Niao Niao was previously ready to defy such paternalistic reasons to keep her promise to Lou Yao, but when she was touched by compassion for He Zhaojun’s losses and the sacrifices of her family, I think that was the tipping point.
I do think that NiaoNiao would’ve come to the same conclusion on her own regarding withdrawing from the marriage because of the reasons @Elaine gives, but I think Ling Buyi’s puppeteering speed things up considerably. lol (I turned on Italics for one word and no matter how I click the button again to turn it off – it’s stuck!)
@Elaine – I appreciate your concise assessment of the situation. Chef’s kiss. Zhao Lu Si did such a good job showing how Shaoshung processed all of this input to come to her own conclusion about ending the engagement. You could see the gears turning and the spirit speaking to her. Perhaps Ling Buyi got the outcome he wanted, but his input was just a piece of the decision puzzle.
That said, Shaoshung’s plaintive, and legitimate, laments that she feels singled out and unlucky that she never gets the outcome she wants, tug at my heart strings. I wasn’t sure, the first couple of times we hear it, that it wasn’t just juvenile dissatisfaction at not getting her way. But as time goes on, Niaoniao has a point that she is thwarted every which way in achieving the recognition, independence, and connection she craves. Of note, it was a big deal (maturity), given this state of mind, that she recognizes Lou Y’Ao’s loss is much greater than hers.
Ah, @beez, your comments and character name choices always make me smile 🙂
To step in on how far Ling Buyi influenced Niao Niao in her decision to call off the marriage with our A’Yao, I believe you and @Elaine are both correct. For one, as Elaine says, Niao Niao was very taken aback both by He Zhaojun’s change in outlook via trauma (that maid tortured by Prince Xiao was basically like a mother to her) and also by Ling Buyi pointing out that without the He sacrifice, a whole city would have been cruelly butchered like Hao County. Niao Niao is certainly affected by both these things. Where @beez is correct, though, is that while Niao Niao does come to her own decision, Ling Buyi is completely playing moves in the carriage. He is a brooding strategist, goal-driven, and has totally set his sights on Niao Niao. Seeing a way he might actually get the girl, he’s not going to gently allow the opportunity to slip away from him. He does know how to get his way, either bluntly – as he does with the old biddies 🙂 – or by strategy, as he does with Niao Niao, and most especially via the proposal. I can’t help but swoon at the way he looks at Niao Niao, and how certain he is that she should marry him. But this watch, I can’t help but see how domineering he is. It’s probably not want you want in a husband…
Wow, good points Ele!! I love how you integrated both our perspectives!
Ling Buyi paving his own path to success eh? Haha. I agree, he is very decisive but that decisiveness and exercise of personal power can mean he has a tendency to overpower others or leave them no choice but to follow his will.
Absolutely! He isn’t someone anyone seems to be able to ‘manage’ – it’s his way or the highway 🙂 And while I admire that strength of mind, I am also afraid for Niao Niao…
@Ele – my last question was specifically directed toward you. Do we know who the missing First and Second Miss Chengs are?
(And my original paragraph has it wrong – NiaoNiao is Fourth, WeeWee is Third. So who are First and Second?)
Beez, I never wondered about this, but God you are right, 2 Misses are missing!🤣🤣
Contrary to the Cheng young masters, where we know there’s an elder brother somewhere.
But the Misses?
Actually the “number” is birth order regardless of gender.
If we just focus on General Cheng’s family (Niao Niao’s nuclear family)
1. Eldest brother
2. Second brother
3. Third brother (Niao Niao’s fraternal twin who was born before her)
4. Niao Niao’s birth order is number 4 so she is “Fourth Miss Cheng”
Yang Yang is born of General Cheng’s brother and is the only child. So she is referred to as Cheng Niang Zi or Miss Cheng or Miss Yang Yang (from what I vaguely recall I haven’t gone into a deep dive!)
Ling Buyi is referred to as Eleventh Young Master by his noble fangirls (Young Master being the equivalent of Mister for the sons of noble families) even though he is the only son of Duke Ling, I think it is because Ling Buyi grew up in the palace and is almost like a foster son of the Emperor
The Emperor has 10 children (mix of sons and daughters) so Ling Buyi is like the 11th kid.
Ahhhhhh. Thanks, Elaine!
@Beez, I did answer this question you had on another post – but Elaine explains it more clearly here! Although, in the novel, there are extra siblings – Yang Yang has a younger brother, for example, and Yaunyi and Cheng Shi and a daughter before the sons and Niao Niao who died 🙁 – so it’s possible the order doesn’t quite match up.
In this story world however, the Emperor’s kids appear to be numbered within their gender category. There is a Third Prince and Third Princess, and a Fifth Prince and Fifth Princess.
I am wondering (off the top of my head, again I haven’t bothered to Google investigate this) whether when there are 10 or more children, then the numbering splits by gender to make things easier?
Cos in my own extended family, my mum who is the eldest of 6 children, is called Eldest sister 大姐 by her younger siblings, and then next in line is called Second Brother or 二哥 even though he is the eldest of the boys. And so on, I.e. by birth order.
But for my father-in-law, he comes from a family of 10 children. They number off in their gender category. So we call his siblings Third Aunt, Third Uncle, or Fourth Aunt, Fourth Uncle, i.e. by their sequence within male category or female category, rather than overall birth order as with the Cheng family, or the example of my mother’s family. I’m not sure if this is due to different sub-cultures within the Chinese-speaking world (my mother’s family is Cantonese, my father-in-law’s family is Hokkien), or is it simply when the number gets too big then it gets easier to split the categories haha.
I did find this useful article about Chinese familial terms (in Mandarin). You guys might find it an interesting read. It doesn’t answer the question of “Fourth Miss Cheng” and whether my interpretation of why “Fourth” is correct, and why the Emperor’s family numbers the princes/princesses by gender category instead of pure birth order haha.. https://studycli.org/learn-chinese/chinese-family-tree/#Talking_about_immediate_family_in_Chinese
Wow. Mind boggling but verrrry interesting
I’ve copied the link you provided earlier. I think I’ll be reading. I’ve really appreciated your comments about NiaoNiao being from the future. Especially as I watch the actress’ body language that we’d usually never see in Chinese dramas set in ancient times. The public twitching and scratching, neck rubbing, etc. It all means something more to me now because if NiaoNiao was truly just a girl left on her own, you’d think she still would’ve picked up some things just by watching others, especially YangYang.
I totally missed your answer. And I can’t remember if I asked it on the Web site or on Patreon during our original watch.