Well, my friends. It looks like I just can’t escape the lure of Jang Hyuk in Chuno, heh.
I know I said that I mostly likely wouldn’t be joining the group watch, but after all the excitement and enthusiasm we shared in the group watch announcement post, I just could not get Chuno out of my head.
I’m in, you guys.
What this means is that I’ll be sharing some episode notes with you from this rewatch, in the Open Thread posts. For the record, this is my 3rd watch.
My last watch was in 2013, when I wrote my Chuno review. I won’t be writing a new review after this watch, but any fresh thoughts and insights will be shared in the episode notes.
I hope you guys enjoy. 😊
Logistics!
Before we dive in, there are 3 important things that I’d like to touch on.
1. Please don’t post spoilers in the Open Thread, except for events that have happened in the show, up to this point. I repeat: no spoilers for future episodes please! We have quite a few first-time viewers among us, and we don’t want to spoil anything for anyone.
2. Discussions on this thread don’t have to close when newer threads open, just so you know! But as we progress through our group watch, please keep the discussions clear of spoilers from future episodes, so that future readers coming to this thread won’t be accidentally spoiled. Does that make sense?
3. We’ll be having a gap week on 25 November 2020 because it’s Thanksgiving week and that would make it difficult for quite a few in our midst to join the discussion. This means that the Open Thread for episodes 3 and 4 will be on 2 December 2020 instead.
I guess this adds to the realism of watching in real time, since we’re pre-empting episodes in favor of real-world events? 😉
Without further ado, here are my reactions to this pair of episodes; have fun in the Open Thread, everyone! ❤️
My thoughts
Episode 1
Ahhh. This is so good, right away. Everything feels rich and layered, and since it’s been a full 7 years since my last watch, everything feels pretty new, too.
I feel better able to understand the dialogue as it’s spoken too, which adds another layer to the experience. Also, the OST is as stirring as ever, and hearing it again, coloring this drama world, gives me a distinct thrill.
For the first time, I find myself wondering about Dae Gil’s age, and since Eonnyeon was 15 when they were separated and it’s been 10 years, that would place Dae Gil in his late twenties, since I’m assuming he’s a few years older than Eonnyeon?
That realization adds a new layer of pathos to Dae Gil, I feel like, because it seems like he’s been through so much already, and he’s only in his twenties.
Jang Hyuk is oh-so-magnificent. So lithe, so lean, and so full of languid swag.
I haven’t had heart-eyes like this in a while, I must admit! Squee~! 😍😍😍
I love that Dae Gil never seems rushed or startled. Even when people are fighting around him and stuff is flying and breaking everywhere, he is completely unruffled.
And when he fights, his moves are swift, sharp and lethal. He might move fast, but he never seems to be in a hurry. His moves always feel calculated and precise, and I love it.
I also find that I’m appreciating everyone else much more, this time around. For example, I hadn’t yet grown so fond of Kim Ji Suk when I’d watched Chuno before, so now, with Kim Ji Suk appreciating eyes firmly in place, I am delighted with his rendition of whiny-but-nimble Wangson.
He’s a lot leaner in this than in I Need Romance 3 where he seemed beefier, and I think it’s perfect for the role. In fact, everyone’s very lean, rather than beefy, and it makes perfect sense.
I also didn’t used to appreciate Lee Jong Hyuk very much, but now, my eyes have adjusted, and I think he cuts a very fine figure wielding the sword.
It is admittedly a little jarring to see how people are treated in this drama world, after such a long break, and with newer shows being more conscious about political correctness, but this is true to the times, and makes sense within our story.
It strikes me that Dae Gil’s got a lot of heart. His tough reputation precedes him, and when dealing with the slaves and with the officials who buy them back in the light of day, he sticks with that tough persona.
But how much heart does he have, to remember and make time to save that girl and her mother – after having a showdown with Cheon Ji Ho and his gang, no less?
It’s not like he was laying around with nothing to do and then thought of them.
Rather, he was attacked by a gang of slave hunters who were trying to tame him and get him to join their fold, and he fought them off singlehandedly – and he still remembered to save the girl and her mother, afterwards.
I think this is the moment that I find that I’ve lost my heart to this man.
Episode 2
I’m reminded all over again, that with this show, you kinda hafta put aside some logic stretches, or it will mess with your ability to enjoy it.
For example, Eonnyeon and her quick change to get away from the bridal chamber is a stretch. Where did she get the clothes, and how did she change so quickly, since the groom’s arrival was called out and announced, while her brother was still talking to her?
She had the time to redo her hair and change into an outfit that appeared out of nowhere, AND fold her bridal clothes neatly in a pile, before making her getaway?
Of course not. But it’s all part of the poetry of this world, and I’m willing to roll with it.
On that note, I’m also reminded, that Eonnyeon does not behave like a slave, even when she’s living as one. I think a lot of viewers found this rather ludicrous – and it is, if you’re using an analytical lens – but again, this is poetry.
So it’s easier to think of her as having a gentlewoman’s soul. That’s why she’s so shocked and sad and perplexed, when she overhears that Dae Gil’s father wants to make arrangements for his marriage.
No other female slave would do that, because they’d know that despite any dalliances they might have with their master, nothing will allow them to be that master’s main wife. But because Eonnyeon has the soul of a noble lady, she’s just different that way.
Before, I’d been so wowed by Jang Hyuk’s fighting prowess during the bait and switch scene, that I could barely register anything else. But now, I realize that there’s so much emotion in the way he plays the scene.
The way Dae Gil moves in, almost in a daze, speaks of so much uncertainty; he’s not sure if it’s her; if it’s her, he’s not sure if she’s the same; he’s not sure if she would feel the same about him; he’s probably not even sure how he feels, since her brother killed his family, and she’d technically left him to die.
All of that uncertainty is played out in Dae Gil’s slow movements, his body rigid with tension, and his gaze full of complicated emotion. It’s really good.
And then, when the many-to-one fight starts, it hits me that he fights with so much emotion. Previously, I’d just been dazzled by his badassery – and he still is so amazing! – but now, I can actually see Dae Gil’s fury, despair and desperate disappointment, played out in his blows.
He’s like a deranged animal in this moment, and I do believe that he would’ve killed Cheon Ji Ho, if General Choi hadn’t intervened.
(Also, can I just say how young Song Dong Il looks in this role? His skin is healthy and unlined, and he just looks so hale and hearty, compared to his more recent outings, where he looks markedly older. I never thought I’d say this because I used to dislike the faux bad teeth, but seeing Song Dong Il as Cheon Ji Ho, is quite a treat!)
I still find it as hilarious as ever, that General Choi is such a hit with the ladies.
One thing that never occurred to me before, though, is what an incongruous sight it is, that a rough and tough slave hunter would spend his spare time reading. I find that studious streak very endearing.
It’s indeed compassionate of Song Tae Ha to save the slaves who had treated him so poorly.
Also, I do love the shock on everyone’s faces, when they realize that the cripple whom they’d been kicking around, is now their savior. Surprise badassery is one of my favorite drama things, and this does not disappoint, even on my third viewing.
The promised showdown between Dae Gil and Tae Ha in the open field is as stirring as before, and I am pumped to see it all go down in our next episode.
WHERE TO WATCH:
Chuno is available on Kocowa and on Viki with Viki Pass.
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Me too! I finally made it!! Chuno was hard for me to watch because of the subject matter, no matter the rave reviews and my love for Jang Hyuk. It took me 3 or 4 tries to get through the first episode (I usually stop around the time they brand the face of the former tiger-hunter slave) so it was a nice surprise that Dae Gil does save the mother-daughter combo. And I love his young master look, so handsome and boyish and radiating with innocence—the complete opposite of Dae Gil the slave hunter.
I almost stopped again somewhere in episode 2 but I didn’t want to get stuck for the nth time so I continued and was rewarded with the nice surprise that there is more to Song Tae Ho than a crippled slave. Overall things are looking up at last.
Glad that you managed to get over the initial hump, Jiyuu!! Better late on the Chuno bandwagon than never, I say! 😃
I finally made it! Yes, I enjoyed the first two episodes. It’s a good story at this point with an epic cast. It’s almost a who’s who of many beloved actors through and through. The opening itself in the first few seconds had me hooked, as BE said. It was reminiscent of not just a Ford Western, but the Spaghetti Western and some of the epic Japanese films of an era long past. Fabulous…
@Sean – Yaaaay! So glad you’re here! 🎉
As I was f-fwding through ep1, looking for something, as the scene went by, I thought about just how did Jang Hyuk handle the old leecher in this episode as I didn’t remember him beating the old man even though we’re given the impression of “Dae gil the Horror to Slaves”. So I stopped and rewatched the scene. He actually “karate chopped” (technically called a knife hand) the maid who was sitting outside the room on the porch and knocked her out. He then entered the room and actually “Vulcan neck-pinched” ol’ dude. 😆
(I know there are supposed to be points on the body that can do this sort of thing but I still find this hilarious for some reason. Maybe because I haven’t actually seen it done in real life so I’m a tad skeptical.)
Sorry beez I ran out of time to correct my error. After watching the video you linked me to I understand, I was mistaken about how the lip formation alters the pronunciation. In my defense, aw or ah does not really accurately describe the sound. I did not hear a long o sound in any case but a softening of the long o sound with a whisper of an h at the end. And seeing the video I now understand better. Hoping you will remain patient with me. Schwa sounds in English have no regular pronunciations. However, seeing this, I see that actually they are codified into regular spoken vowel sounds in Korean. This sound starts as the o sound starts in English but that softening and whisper of what would be an h comes from the mouth formation giving it something also of a sound resembling the beginning in the word “all.” That is to say, I was not mishearing, but only lacked the accurate vocabulary to communicate it to you. This link on your part, however, communicated to me what you were trying to express quite clearly. Thank you and I apologize for my inability to communicate clearly.
PS what I mean by starts as the same sound is that where the sound originates in the voice box and moves up through the throat and bounces off the back of the palette is as Jeremy notes the same as where the O as spoken in English does. It is lip formation that alters the sound, creating the effect he describes that you hear, and the one I hear as well.
@BE – no need to apologize. I was being impatient only because I didn’t want to say to you what I was thinking because I thought it would sound arrogant from a beginner such as myself. I’ve learned a couple of other languages (French and some Japanese and, of course, I was raised with American sign language for the deaf) but Korean is unlike any language you’ve ever dealt with. I figured if I said that, everyone would think I’m only saying that because of the difficulty learning it that I’ve spoken of in the past. But from what I’ve been told, Korean is the most difficult language besides Navajo to learn.
Forgive me for my impatience with you because you were using logic and intuitive learning that works with other languages. I truly did stop being irritated, as midway through typing my last comment on this subject, I stopped and searched for a video and hearing Jeremy say he made the same mistake early on. (Also Jeremy’s Korean skills have been verified by TTMIK and Korean-Americans saying his pronunciation is excellent and he has no discernable foreign accent so I trust his pronunciation). I just never heard it the way you and he did so I thought you were pushing something that was waaaaaaaay off base but turns out you weren’t.
English, American English, is pretty demanding. Students I had from Cambodia were entirely buffaloed. Idiomatic usage alone is staggering. Phonetics beyond comprehension. If Korean does have a regular set of vowel sounds, what a leg up.
Why, if it is not too rude to ask, is it “of course,” that you were raised with American Sign Language for the Deaf?
@BE – just as I’ve probably mentioned my short-term memory problems far too many times on the boards, I’ve also mentioned that my aunt and uncle who were deaf mutes who lived in our basement so I’m pretty fluent in sign language. (Sorry to everybody who’s heard it before.) My parents were old enough to be my grandparents (born in 1915 and 1918) and yet they were much younger than my aunt and uncle. So you can imagine that there weren’t a lot of opportunities for my uncle, a black deaf mute, by way of jobs or education. It’s wonderful to see the innovations and rights afforded to today’s “hearing impaired” community.
My parents were born in 1919 and 1920. It’s a unique experience to grow up in a severe economic depression.
@merij1 -Yes. I thought it was really weird that my dad hoarded toilet paper which he kept in a huge cabinet in the basement. It was the cheap thin stuff and we never used it so us kids just thought it was strange. And so to see people hoarding toilet paper this year certainly brought back memories.
Thanks beez. My parents were born in 1909 and 1910. They were in their late thirties when I was born. I think the thing that most boggles my mind. Born before airplanes, before automobiles, before paved roads. They lived in east Los Angeles, and an excursion to the beach was an all day affair before camping out, a freeway drive today if there isn’t too much traffic that takes about a half hour. The changes in the world they were witness to. Two world wars, the great depression. The post war prosperity and move into the middle class. My dad’s family lived in Detroit to begin with, coming into the states via Nova Scotia, but someone had asthma and they headed west to go to Phoenix and wound up in LA instead. My mom’s mother moved to LA from St. Louis because she wanted to live in countryside.Russia was never spoken of, except obliquely as “the old country,” and yiddish only when my parents did not want the kids to understand what they were talking about.
@BE @merij1 – Yessss. When I think about them telling us how a trip to visit my uncle who was in a neighbouring city farther away from home attending deaf school involved stopping often to change the tires just on one road trip – and this was expected. Not like how now, a flat tire is something we’ve all experienced but, what? 5 in a lifetime? Whereas they knew and expected it to happen a couple of times a trip when they visited him every month. I’m thinking a combination of the type of tires vehicles had (called innertubes, I think?) and the poor roads. Not to mention carrying water for the radiatotor and cranking the car. I’m sure I don’t even know the half of what went into a road trip like that.
I have one aunt remaining. She’s in her 90’s and the things she’s seen… the things she’s had to adapt to… Some genius in the family recently talked her into buying a smart phone when she could barely operate her flip phone. smh
So what all of you are trying to say is that your parents are born before my great grandparents?
Okay that means you are all at very wise age. Feels like I should hold back on here with my “temper” about everything.
Reading this makes me a little embarassed about the way I write. But I can change that. I usually try to stick to ordinary language to keep it simple for everyone.
@reaper – hey! Don’t make me feel old! Please just be your natural prickly, contrary, Devil’s Advocate playing self. 😆
EDITED TO ADD: At least I’m not as old as @BE snicker 😂😂😂
Reaper, we’re just grateful you’re not using individual words that are longer than our sentences!
Also let me add that the sounds for a lot of the characters are somewhere in between our sounds. And the sounds can change depending on how they link to the words/syllables that come before it. I cannot explain that in script but only if we were practicing pronunciation. I also know that what we hear is greatly influenced by how we process our own (mostly Latin-based languages). Meaning the order that some sounds come in where suddenly I’m stumbling trying to pronounce something that should be simple and yet… 😊
Schwa–in the American pronunciation of Sebastapol, the town in Sonoma, County, CA (not Russia) every vowel in it is a schwa variation, so that when simply observing that word you would be hard pressed to define the pronunciation of any English vowel. In addition the guy you linked me to was speaking not so much of schwa sounds, but dipthongs in which the vowel sounds are stretched and bent like a blues guitar string, most evident in the South of the United States (probably in some part having antecedents in African spoken languages).
Also for me, with regard to this, at this point, I just want to understand the complicated rules of formality, so I can get a better grip on things watching these dramas or listening to music as English translation from Korean that I see, sheesh. IU’s songs for example if they translated into an English that would capture the essence of the meaning she was trying to convey by following American inflections, syntax, and idiomatic strategies would be far more impactful than the literal stuff I see, which renders some of her lyrics needlessly hard to follow and awkward in their delivery. Similarly the more I know, the more it irritates me how much sometimes translations in these dramas are glossing over. So yeah, yes, okay, unh huh, absolutely, yes sir or yes ma’am, hey, and so on–whatever their equivalents in Korean as well as the contextual why are a kind of starting point for me. I have no one to speak with, but I have need to understand what I am hearing.
Ohhhkay.
Begging everyone’s pardon for starting a new thread about usage, but the one beez and I are in is so hard to post on anymore, so @beez, I don’t remember where I got the orthography, but googling the whole issue, I came up with this: “The standard informal word for ‘yes’ is 응 (eung), but males often say 어 (eo) instead. These words sound very informal so be careful about when to use them. Since these are informal versions of how to say yes in Korean, make sure you use them with people who are lower in the social hierarchy than you are.” Now that character may well be described as “eo,” but that is not how I hear it, which is a forshortened “oh!” I did not know it was a male form–male informal, what an inflection!– and I do not think I have heard exactly what the generally informal form is quite so clearly, but now I am on the lookout.
@BE – but. and I reiterate – it’s not a long “oh” sound as you repeatedly insist. https://youtu.be/CNMHTL5J5zw
Jeremy in this video says he also used to incorrectly think it sounds like “oh”. I never heard that so…
HAPPY THANKSGIVING KFANGURL and to all of THE KFG CREW!
Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Beez! ❤️🥰 And to everyone else here, as well. You guys are the best! 😘
Late to the party (blame an intense stretch of work these last two weeks) but watching along and reading the comments (by now it took almost as long as watching the two episodes). Thanks to all for the additional insights.
Since there has been a lot of discussion about Korean language, I was curious enough about one thing to ask it here. The characters are using “unni” to refer to male characters, which is obviously different from modern day usage. Is it simply a time capsule thing or is something subtle being rendered there?
In other news, finally making it into the home stretch of Tree With Deep Roots – can’t wait to find out if those letters ever get promulgated!
And happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it.
In 2019 Han Seok Kyu reprised his role as King Se Jong, in a movie about a similar controversy during his reign, that of setting up a national astronomical science, Forbidden Dreams, also starring the great Choi Min Sik. It is kind of short story adjunct to Tree and as a result not nearly so stirring. And one must admit, it really is more a Choi Min Sik vehicle, although he is so good I did not care. There also has been a more recent movie The King’s Letters starring Parasite lead, Song Kang Ho, which I have not seen, and since I liked Han Seok Kyu’s enactment so much, am a bit reticent to watch.
It is a wonderful performance in a show filled with them and thanks for the suggestion for a followup (although I think my saeguk slot will be filled with Chuno for a while).
Hi KFG: I finally got into the Chuno watch and I have somewhat mixed feelings so far. For one, I have a hard time feeling empathy for a slave hunter as I feel for the wretched slaves more and Dae-gil, a ruthless hunter with a fearsome reputation, seems one of the worst. He redeems himself somewhat by rescuing the young girl and her mother. Maybe I’ll get a better feel for his character when I understand why he became a slave hunter.
Having said that, I like the camaraderie of Dae-gil and his partners; their characters are drawn quite well and distinctively, Wang-son provides the comic relief and the carefree nature of youth while General Choi is on the other side of Dae-gil who revealingly asks him, what’s life like at your age, what will it be for me 5-6 years from now? Clearly, there’s a big void in Dae-gil’s life, an emptiness he’s seeking to fill.
The action scenes are excellent and Jang Hyuk is swoon-worthy, slave hunters walk around with their abs showing, who knew? Jang Hyuk is like a coiled snake, emitting an aura of danger and ultimate bad-assness in his walk and deliberate speech. Tae-ha is shaping up to be a formidable character and I can see a long running battle between them as he’s an escaped slave and Dae-gil is a hunter. He is cast as the “noble hero” type and Oh Ji-ho does it well.
The pacing is excellent, the two episodes went in a flash, and the cinematography is really good. The opening scene with the three slave hunters riding on horses through a wind storm evokes the Sergio Leone western movies and there’s a classic iconic shot of Tae-ha on a cliff overlooking the scene below. Lee Da-hae is good looking as been said by others elsewhere but there isn’t much to her character so far, maybe that’s her role, “damsel in distress”.
I haven’t gone through all the comments so apologize if there’s some repetition here.
I don’t have time to re-watch this one, but I’m really enjoying reading through all of the comments. Lots of good stuff here 🙂
First thing…..I would have never watched this drama if not for this initiative…(Jang Hyuk was never in my radar)
So thanks to all of you…because I am thoroughly enjoying this….Managed to finish 4 episodes as I want to get a gist of where the story is headed because I really didn’t see much happening in the first 2 episodes.
For me it picked up steam from the 3rd episode and now I am really left in suspense at the end of episode 4.
To avoid spoilers, I will restrict my views on the first 2 episodes:
Brilliant cinematography and shot compositions, great action sequences and good acting….but the background score is something else…it totally elevates the story to a different level altogether….and this one was made for the big screen…
Jang Hyuk rocks in his role as Dae Gil…I think he might have just lived this character…And I liked the bonhomie between the trio…its fun….But for some reason I am getting a soft spot for Tae-ha….(I always end up liking the second lead better in some of these famous Dramas….happened in Healer where I could only follow Kim Mun Ho after a point) The only letdown is the female lead for me so far…I mean she is gorgeous but she is unable to make me feel the emotions unlike the guys…
The Minister comes across as a very cunning politician and I think he is going to make this story very interesting….the story does seem to have a lot of political connotations and hopefully it all goes into full steam as the episodes progress….
Good choice and I am glad that I didn’t miss this one….Enjoy everybody 😉
@Princess Jasmine – “I always end up liking the second lead better in some of these famous Dramas….happened in Healer where I could only follow Kim Mun Ho after a point”. Quoting Princess Jasmine
Double take of all double takes First Seankfletcher and Kfangurl and now this! It’s one thing to prefer Tae ha over Dae gil. That just proves you’re sane. (As opposed to the rest of us who obviously aren’t.) But, Princess Jasmine, did you comment in the Healer thread about this malady you suffer? I’d like to read more of your thoughts that caused you prefer Mun ho over Healer. the world’s gone mad 🙃
Kim Mun Ho is a very good looking man and seems easily likeable. But up until Healer ended, I kept fearing his character would turn out to be a bad guy like his brother; which is to say, not the sexy kind.
Had I known he was merely conflicted with internal demons and trying to make amends for the past, I might have considered him with a different lens.
@Princess Jasmine – I checked the Healer thread and I see you didn’t comment there. I hope eventually you’ll get around to it so I can see what was at work there for you. When/if you’re ready to talk about it, I’m sure the system will send me a notification. I would ask you here, but I think it would be better to talk about it in the Healer thread for various reasons.
Ok I will do that right away as I am yet to get around writing my bit for Healer;
I don’t think I ever got around to posting detailed comments on Healer either. Such a well-balanced and great show!
@merij1 – I’ll be waiting to hear your thoughts
Beez – I finally posted my views on “Kim Mun Ho” in Healer review. feel free to add your thoughts/correct me if I am wrong…thanks for asking me to do this…
@Princess Jasmine – No way could I “correct” you on your feelings for Moon ho just because I might disagree with you. In fact, I’m usually the odd man out in what I latch onto or reject so…
I’m popping over to the Healer thread now to see what insanity has brought you to crush on Moon ho more than Healer. 😆
I believe it was, in fact, made as if it were for the big screen.
Hi y’all
Bit Late to the party.
Just wanna say Chuno is surely an interesting show.
And its pretty unapologetic about what is probably not an exaggerated depiction of the f-ed up practices of those times.
So It feels like game of thrones (in sense of being crude and being like ‘no I’m not gonna sugarcoat it, those were pretty dark times’ vibe)
And I really respect that.
I don’t love our main 3 protagonists yet though.
Though Generally I do like dark characters or characters whose action are the way they are because of the world itself is an unjust world.
But it’s a lil difficult since they are directly responsible for causing pain and suffering to innocent slaves lives.
Tbh I sorta side with the limping dude more than our band of trios.
Also that other slave that was caught in the first episode who was tattooed on his face. (Also suffered cuz of the slave hunters)
Of course I’m hoping that things change and we get a good arc for them but for some reason it seems like its already the defined status quo of the world.
Which I can’t technically complain about. Since that’s of course is a choice in storytelling.
But still, I can hope.
I really really hope the trio Become “good”(‘good’ is a bit vague or rather a broad term to use but nonetheless).
Cuz they are written as Likeable characters and I like their dynamic which each other and also their dynamic with the locals.
Yay! Another tentative recruit for Team Limping Dude!
@merij1 – I’m not even Team Tae ha but even I find that insulting for the character. Besides, he was no longer limping by the end of Ep. 2! 😝
There are three dudes we have been introduced to, no spoilers except to say the General is not one, who should not be insulted in this drama.
I feel like I should be updating my resume. (Now that pink slips are raining down like men!)
@merij1- if only! sigh
To clarify – if only they were raining down Chuno style men. (And before you say it, merij1 – NOT the tertiary men but the main leads chocolate abs kind.)
Another question…for Snow Flower…how accurate is the depiction of woman ninja assassins in these sageuks, whole bands of them in some?
@BE, I did a quick search on this topic, and found that ninjas were mercenaries who engaged in covert operations and espionage in feudal Japan. It seems that their heyday was in the 15th century, but their existence has been documented as early as the 12th century. When Japan was unified in the early 1600s, they faded into obscurity, and their legendary skills and abilities (sometimes involving the supernatural) became part of Japanese folklore. There were female ninjas too. I have seen ninja-like characters in Korean sageuks, but I don’t know if they actually existed in Korea. From the description of the Japanese ninjas, they seem to have thrived in feudal societies, where warlords or independent landowners had enough wealth to employ mercenaries or maintain private armies. I think Joseon was more centralized than Japan, so probably there were fewer ninja-like warriors there. Also, Confucianism valued scholarly abilities more than martial arts skills.
Since politics always play a role in sageuks, it is not too far fetched to assume that power hungry lords often resorted to less than moral ways to achieve their goals, and hiring shadowy figures to do their dirty work seems very likely. In many sageuks, female ninjas/spies are also gisaengs (professional entertainers, highly skilled in poetry, music, and dance).
In short, I can’t tell for sure if the depiction of such characters in sageuks is accurate, but their existence makes sense in the genre.
Hey, thanks. Chuno is such a good vehicle for thinking about Korean drama.
I think this is my 7th or 8th Chuno watch, and I am still fascinated by it. I did not know much about Korean history when I watched it for the first time, but the drama motivated me to learn more.
I had a similar experience with Mr. Sunshine.
PS Props K for your opening commentary, as usual, your uncanny ability to combine the personal and visceral with insight, the ability to be analytical while expressing enthusiasm and affection, to both respond to the characters and the actors playing them simultaneously–the match that kindles all the commentary that follows.
Aw, thanks so much for your kind words, BE! ❤️ I’m really glad you enjoyed my episode notes. Credit goes to you guys, for taking the little kindling I could offer, and rolling with it until the discussion is now as rich as it is! 😀
A general question: when the innkeeper was chatting up the General, she seemed to imply a backstory for him in which he suffered a tragedy with a former wife (maybe a kid). This might explain his seeming indifference to feminine charms, given, geez, you guys are talking about Dae Gil and Dae Ha, General Choi, from an indifferent observer’s point of view, no squee for General Choi? Guys like him when I was young would have been the number 1 preference for many women I knew.
Do any of you remember this circumstance being elaborated upon anywhere in the story. You don’t have to spell that out, NO SPOILERS, just a yes or no on that will suffice.
@BE, we never get any details on General Choi. He appears to be literate, so maybe he belonged to the minor nobility. Since the drama is set during the aftermath of a devastating invasion, it is possible that he lost his family and estate in 1636.
As for the inn keeping ladies, my guess is that they are widows. I read somewhere that becoming an inn keeper or a store owner was a common occupation for retired gisaengs, so that’s another possibility. Their establishment is not in the best part of town, but it seems to be a legitimate inn, not a brothel or a gambling den. Strict Confucianism did not allow widows to remarry, so even though the jumos’ obsession with General Choi is played for a comic relief, there is some poignant desperation in their efforts to impress him.
I can’t remember if this is elaborated on; I just wanted to say, I do have a big soft spot for General Choi!! 😍😍
I didn’t hear anything about his backstory being mentioned yet. And I’m sorry, but who would pay
more than an appreciative glance to Gen. Choi when Dae gil is scorching up the screen? 🔥 🔥 🔥 🤣
The jumos are pretty indifferent to Daegil’s charms. It seems that they are looking for a strong, kind, and even-tempered guy for a potential husband, and General Choi is a perfect fit!
@Snow Flower – Well, of course they are! Because the script told them to be! 😆
(Along with the fact that Dae gil is supposed to be a heartless monster. And he is missing his heart when it comes to a woman filling it.)😥
What’s a jumo?
@reaper – Pronunciation jumo
Definition (meaning)
1. (formal) a female pub owner in Ancient Chosun Dynasty era. (especially, Korean traditional pub)
Ah so that belongs to that family. Reminds me of a female middle aged restaurant owner (imo)
Just butting in to clarify that “imo” doesn’t specifically refer to a restaurant owner. In its strictest definition, it refers to maternal aunt. However it is also often used to address an unrelated older lady who is on close terms with you. Therefore, when someone addresses a restaurant owner or manager as “imo” they are using it loosely as a term of affection to create a friendlier tone with the person. 🙂
Similar dynamic to current day ‘Ajhumma’
Used also for older ladies serving in local pubs or tent bars or shops etc.
Is that a fair comparison?
I think that’s a somewhat similar dynamic, though the difference is that “Ahjumma” is not a familial term of address (ie not a term you’d use on any of your family members), and is basically strictly used as a relatively informal term of address for an older woman who is not related to you. Comparing “imo” and “ahjumma,” I believe “imo” is used to indicate a friendlier tone with said lady, while “ahjumma” is more neutral. 🙂
@Prashil Prakash – I would say yes and no. Ahjumma, to me, seems equal to ma’am in English. You never call a woman under 40 ma’am (not if you want to live to tell about it) 😆. The reason I’m saying it’s yes and no is because “emu” is actually your mother’s sister but it can be used the same way we might assist an older stranger and call her “Mother” or “Grandmother” depending on her age. “Emu” might be used for someone who might take offense that you think they’re old enough to be your mom yet still affording respect. But I think “ahjumoni” would be better (safer). So calling a restaurant owner or older waitress “emu” is just another way to show respect BUT I recently watched a TTMIK (Talk to Me In Korean) where they discuss that some restaurant ahjummas may not like the overly familiarity of strangers calling them “emu” and Han-noo (of TTMIK – I probably spelled his name wrong) said he would “never do that unless he knew the restaurant owner didn’t mind”.
@Prashil Prakash – I found the TTMIK video that talks about “emu” applied to restaurant owners. If you fast forward to 8:45 is specifically about the term “emu” and restaurant owners but to really get what they’re saying, I think it’s best to back up about some before that to where they talk about “ahjumma” and “ahjusshi”
Here’s the link https://youtu.be/CI6niUdhP3g
Ah, beez, Dae Gil–too broody and volatile, Dae Ha–too full of his own uprightness, the General–solid, there, patient. Oh I know a lot of women who would make that preference.
@BE – And they’d be wise to do so. Unfortunately most women, and me included, go for the bad boy and wreck our lives. (I thought it was well established here that I’m a wrong guy picker? The only differences is, I KNOW I’m making a stupid choice.) 😆
In my youth I went for the femme fatales, the sexy sadies, and one did wreck my life, ground it up in little pieces and the rubbed the particles into the ground with the heeld of her shoes, sexual allure is what it is, but at a certain point one has had enough adventure and comfort is more comfortable. I am glad my daughters finally got over the attraction to bad boys and have each a real sweetheart in their lives. It makes my life as their dad so much easier.
@BE – I was just saying over in the Flower of Evil thread how attractive Kim Ji hoon is playing a serial killer. But, if I know me, if he’s portraying a nice guy in the next role I see him in, I’ll probably go back to feeling like I don’t see what all the brew-ha-ha is about. lol
Even though I am a guy, I feel the same way about Yoo Yeon Sook. So far having seen him in other things, if I had not seen Mr. Sunshine, I would be wondering why someone would say he is such hot stuff. And to emphasize that point I almost never hear about his real name, even I always have to look up the spelling, but I good and well know how to spell Goo Dong Mae.
@BE 🤣
I believe they will elaborate a little bit about General Choi in a future episode, not a lot but they provided some more background
There was on thing I really enjoyed on this second watch and that was the Nongak performance at the end of E1 at the wedding. Wondering who that Sangsoe (conductor telling the bawdy story) is and what the name of the group is. This performance flew right by me on the first watch. If there is anyone who can read Hangul I would really appreciate the name of the group if they list them on the credits. Thanks!
One more thought about violence in story telling. Along with Leo Tolstoy (and may I say no one has written a battle scene the equal of the battle of Borodino in War and Peace; you can smell the gunsmoke), the Welsh craftsman, William Morris was the father of the international pacifist movement that in many ways gave birth to Ghandi and King, Jr. One of Morris’ many vocations along with being a chair maker (the Morris chair antecedent to today’s luxury recliners) and wallpaper designer, was also a poet and writer of especially ornate fantasy novels, existing in some fictionalized pre-Raphaelite medieval world. Tolkien and Lewis refer to him. He wrote one violent scene after another. And yet there it was: his most historical contribution, to my way of thinking, was that he was among the first to express that what he was saying was “give peace a chance.” I hope I am not contributing too heavily. beez, especially, I want to assure you there is nothing at all wrong with loving the fight scenes in this, they are beautifully presented, kinetic, exciting to watch.
@BE – can’t be too light or too heavy for me, BE. I only wish you did have a Korean production company after your thoughts on Jang Hyuk as Hamlet! 😆
Just a couple things to mention that haven’t been touched on that I particularly liked: Jang Hyuk practically dancing across the stick racks that were holding up the hanging fabric at the beginning of episode two and the state of Tae Ha’s sword (that has seen a lot of action–also cool how he had it hidden). I have to say I was personally more impressed with Tae Ha than Dae Gil. Time will tell if that continues. We are only 2 eps in.
Oh yes, that scene of him leaping across those poles was pretty amazing! 🤩 It blows my mind to think that he did all his own fighting and stunts!
As for Tae Ha vs. Dae Gil, if memory serves, I believe there were 2 camps of viewers when this show aired; those who preferred Dae Gil, and those who preferred Tae Ha. So, you’re not alone in leaning towards Tae Ha! As for me.. I could hardly see anyone else, after Dae Gil established his swaggery self on my screen, lol. 🤩😍
hahaha! Kfangurl 😆 It’s just like Team Edward vs Team Wolf Boy. (For the record, I fell into the warm-blooded Team Wolf Boy camp even though I can’t remember Taylor Lautner’s character’s name right this minute) 😀
I don’t even remember much of the first and only Twilight movie I watched while in-flight. I remember preferring Taylor Lautner too, though! 😂
@kfangurl – You preferred Taylor Lautner 👍 even though his role was really tiny in the first movie, which if I recall correctly was mostly devoted to establishing the big love connection between Bella and Edward. His role got much bigger later to create the classic love triangle that we all know and love in Kdrama where you know the second lead doesn’t stand a chance.
Tell me please you prefer Song Joong Ki. By the way I have been to those woods in Washington, and the writer of that series seriously missed out on the possibilities, not to mention the likely indigenous lore concerning magical beings inhabiting the rain forest and the north Washington shore.
I always thought a great werewolf fantasy would take place in Michigan in the time of the French fur traders before the Elm blight, native American/French trapper interface: Loupe de Loupe, Werewolves on Elm St.
@BE – Song Joong ki! Of course!
But now that this is a co-ed discussion, those two camps have split into four:
Ha. Unintended rhyme, there.
For me, as a guy, Tae Ha wins in that second grouping, hands down.
.
.
Also, the thing about squee is that the guy you’d love to have a hot fling with is often NOT the guy you’d want to spend your life with. Whereas imagining yourself “being someone” is for life, by definition.
Also bear in mind, I’ve only seen the first two episodes…
@merin1 – “For me, as a guy, Tae Ha wins in that second grouping, hands down.” quoting merin1
Ha! That’s why “nice guys finish last [with the ladies]” 😆
Sad but so true. But beware marrying those bad boys!
There was a great thread addressing this topic in a movie we saw recently on Amazon Prime, “End Of Sentence.”
It’s an estranged father-son bonding story, where the son is getting out of federal prison and is coerced by his dad to accompany him to Ireland to scatter his recently deceased mom’s ashes at a lake.
When they get there, someone shows the dad a photo of his wife (before he met her) with a hot guy on a motorcycle.
The dad is played by John Hawkes, who some will remember as the partner and best friend of alpha-male sheriff Seth Bullock in Deadwood.
Suffice to say, John Hawkes is NOT an alpha male, nor a hot guy, and in this movie they take that to an extreme. He’s simply a good man.
Anyway, he starts getting obsessed with who that hot guy was and whether his wife had ever really gotten over him, or whether she’d merely settled for her husband as a lesser alternative. And eventually receives some solid wisdom on the subject from an attractive young con-woman. (She still steals his car, however!)
@merij1 – I’m adding that to my list of shows to watch when my eyes need a break from subtitles. I’ll probably watch it very soon because that list is nowhere near as long as my Kdrama list. Thanks, merij1.
@merij1 – well, I’m removing End of Sentence from my list. I searched it out on Prime to watch it tonight but it’s not free. I think I would’ve liked it but I only pay to watch something that I really, really, really want to watch for some reason or another.
It’s good, but certainly not in the must-see class.
@beez: I’m not surprised women like the “bad boys”; I figured that out pretty early and even though i wasn’t a “bad boy,” I don’t think (some of my relatives may differ), I projected confidence and always tried to leave a little bit of me as a mystery; I gave the same advice to my older son and it worked well for him and I’m very happy with my daughter in law. You see, I don’t think “good girls” like bad boys as much as they don’t like “nice” guys so all you have to do is project a bit of “bad boyism” and avoid the nice guy label. I’ve never been labelled a “nice guy” but I wasn’t really a “bad boy”, I was a counterfeit so to speak, lol.
I’m with merij1 in preferring Tae Ha, he’s projecting hidden depths as a slave hunter reading books and resisting feminine wiles, man of mystery!. I actually have a hard time liking Jang Hyuk’s character through the first two episodes, I’ll discuss further in a stand alone post.
@Geo – I’ve noticed a few people here are confusing Tae ha, General Choi, and the General who fought back-to-back with Tae ha before he was demoted to being a slave.
So we have 3 generals:
Dae gik’s right-hand man is called General Choi
Tae ha, the slave who fake limps and who is an ex General (sometimes the story will refer to him as General)
And the guy who fought back-to back in the flashback with Tae ha (limper), is General Hwang Cheol-Woong
Now that that’s out the way, Gen. Choi, the quiet, calm, book-reading hunk – He’s not bad, BUT…he’ll always be Dae gil’s side kick. 😆
I joke but I find it very interesting that you guys (the fellas) aren’t feelin’ Dae gil. I’m ready to hear the reasons.
@beez: {knocks head} Thanks for correcting me about General Choi vs Tae-ha, I actually can differentiate them, just not when it’s late at night, lol. However, I do find there’s a physical resemblance between General Choi and Tae-ha, a tall, lean, seen it all look. I view them as very similar characters and obviously confused them in my mind.
Hi Beez! shily waves Im ready to watch first two eps today and very excited! Anyway, I get the feeling that Daegil is not a character that one can like “right away”. It takes some time to get to know him and see his “charms” lol At least that was my experience the first time I watched Chuno. That one act of kindness was not enough to impress me. I honestly don’t remember the exact moment I decided I was actually rooting for him but I know it wasn’t early on.
@Drama Fan waves wildly 👋 Girl, I was hooked my first time watching Chuno. I don’t even think it registered what was going on. I came into it loving Jang Hyuk and so for me he was “good guy” and everybody else could just vacate my screen if they weren’t talking directly to him so that he had a reason to speak. I was even thrilled when he described himself in less than complimentary terms and then admitted he was the scoundrel in the flesh! 😂😂😂💜😍
ROTFL! 🤣🤣🤣
@merij1, I gotta say that I like BOTH Dae Gil and Tae Ha, they are both gorgeous and overall good men. My nickname is Justice Jane, I tend to follow the rules and like justice ⚖, evil people should pay for their evil deeds. I lean more towards Tae Ha as his ethics are more firm, which is a quality I greatly value in a partner. That said, I will drool over BOTH, they are swoon-worthy💞
There is an element of heroic tragedy to great sageuks. I am a man who has always leaned in toward the life of a common man. And since it strikes me that some fellas get lucky and others do not. right time, right place, right person, right oil to keep things going, hasn’t much to do with what kinda hero or villain or common person one is.
Interesting question….
I am a female but if given a choice this is what it would be:
(I have a soft spot for Tae-Ha and I might end up liking him….)
(I am all for ethics and stuff like that…etc etc…but leaving all that for a moment)
One and Two – Hands down Dae-Gil…..He might come across as unethical or not so world-wise…..but there is something about him that draws you in….he definitely knows what he is doing why he is doing and how he is doing….just makes him an interesting character
Three and Four – If I have to choose as a male, I would still go with Dae-Gil because its just an interesting life to live and experience…..
(I really like honest ethical people but sometimes it becomes too one dimensional and its just nice to experience the various aspects of life including having shades of grey or being bad for a certain time….)
Don’t say I didn’t warn everyone, but for as long as it lasts, I am Team Ji Ho. Well…not on his team, I like Dae Gil’s team a lot better, and Dae Ha (my guess is phonetically in Asian languages d’s and t’s are so similar–in English everyone spells the Chinese word “tao,” but pronounces it “dao.” And I have seen so many spellings of Un Nyon, that I have no idea the correct orthography for her) hardly has a team to speak of for a while, though later on I really liked his right hand man. But NO SPOILERS.
You’re on Team Ji Ho, the former sunbae, now bitter competitor slave hunter? Ha. You crack me up.
Haha, I am all for a drama dealing with Cheon Ji Ho’ s adventures in his younger days!
Ah, when Dae Gil met Ji Ho. Like a cat I once had adopting a puppy we took in.
@BE – yup. I can just see it. Puppy Daegil would totally resist “going” on the box. And when he got old enough, I’m sure he’d play nasty tricks like hiding the litter box from his eonni.
Have you guys noticed that instead of “hyung” ancient address is “eonni” for the guys? Someone told me (a long time ago) that it switched over to only being used younger female to older female (sister) but they never told me how or why. But then to make things even more complicated – the younger sisters-in-law must address the oldest sister-in-law as “Hyung”. I haven’t gotten that far in my studies yet but I’m pretty sure that’s right. Maybe Snow Flower or Kfangurl can help me out here?
@beez, I am clueless about this but I am curious too.
Not sure on the hows or whys.. just popping in to clarify that an older sister-in-law is addressed as “hyung-nim” not “hyung.” This could be your elder brother’s wife, or your brother-in-law’s wife. My best guess as to why this might be – and remember, I am basically making a wild stab in the dark – is perhaps because the person is someone related to the “hyung” who needs to be shown respect, thus the “-nim”..? 🤔 Sometimes the hanja is able to give me clues on why a phrase means what it does, but in this case, only the “hyung” has a hanja – “兄” – which means older brother.
Thanks, kfangurl. I’d forgotten about the “-nim” added to the “hyung”
@BE – I don’t know about other Asian languages but you’re right about the “d” and “t'” in Korean. And sometimes syllables “dae” with “nae” are almost indistinguishable. “P” and “B” too. Also the the “k” and “g” are interchangable when writing Korean sounds into English. (There are a couple of different official ways which only means some internationally appointed panels agreed “this is how we’ll do it”.) It has to do with the placement of the tongue in which the sounds are really in between sounds that Western languages don’t make so the English letters are only approximations.
In my newbie days, while watching Kim Samsoon, the characters began parodying a entertainment news type broadcast and referring to “Ms. G” and Mr. [forget Hyun Bin’s characters initials]. Anyway, I was lost and had no idea who they were talking about because I had no idea that “Ms. G” was the same as saying “Ms. K” for Ms. Kim.
As it happens, we’re on episode 12 (out of 16) of “My Lovely Sam Soon, AKA My Name is Kim Sam Soon” right now.
Hyun Bin’s character’s name is named Hyun Jin-heon, but she call him Sam Shik.
He looks so young! Looks much better now with his face less pointy/narrow.
@merij1, I thought he looked really good in Kim Samsoon. It was Secret Garden where he looked all sharp angles. lol
How are you liking Kim Samsoon?
@ beez Until recently, China’s greatest poet was known to the western world as Tu Fu; more recently it is Du Fu. Similarly Li Po is now Li Pai. Given that their stature in the west is so attached to the initial orthographic representation, it will take a long time for the newer spellings to elicit anything more than confusion for all but the avid followers of them where they are not being discussed by actual Chinese readers and speakers.
There are several different romanization systems in Korean, I believe, so that is probably what complicates matters. In terms of how things are pronounced versus how they are romanized / spelled, I’ve noticed that there is quite a lot of difference in Korean. For example, “sorry” is romanized as “mianhae” but is pronounced more like it’s written “bianhae” instead.
I wouldn’t say the same for Chinese. In Chinese, there is a distinct difference between “dao” and “tao.” However, it’s possible that in referencing something Chinese, westerners might have romanized it differently compared to how it’s romanized by the Chinese themselves (ourselves? Since I’m Chinese?). For example, if you’re referring to Taoism, in Chinese, this is not romanized with a “t” but a “d,” ie, “dao.” I hope this helps! 🙂
I can’t wait until I get to the place in my studies where they explain how and why the heck the family/clan name Choi is pronounced Chay! 😄
Ahaha! Do share, when you find out why! 😀 To complicate matters, there is a family name Choi in Cantonese and it’s pronounced as “Choy” not “Chay” and I got confused at first when I was first told via email, that I would be meeting a Mr. Choi, thinking that I was about to meet a Korean and not a Chinese person. 😂😂
The moment I find out…
I have seen two different spellings of the Korean name Park/Pak.
@BE – It’s Pak but in English it becomes Park. I’m always curious why things are the way they are. In my imagination, I picture early British linguists with their shortened “r”‘s pronouncing it Pahk and spelling it Park.
Back in university I had some korean exchange students and they told. Using your example of mianhae -> both ways of saying it are right but koreans tend to have an what they call it “explosive” first letter which makes it sound like bianhae.
Just one example ^^
I mean korean has a letter that looks like this ㅡ that technically can’t be romanized. But they have to in some way that is why ㅡ = eu
@reaper525 – that’s right about the “m” and “b”. But as far as the “character can’t be summarized” – really that’s the truth for all of the characters. They’re basically what we would call sticks or lines. Here’s the letters off my keyboard
ㅂㅈㄷㄱㅅ ㅛㅕㅑㅐㅔㅁㄴㅇㄹㅎ ㅗㅓㅏㅣㅋㅌㅊㅍ ㅠ ㅜㅡ
ㅃㅉㄸㄲㅆ ㅛㅕㅍ
Each “letter” has been signed an English equivalent based on how similar the sound. The letters can also be combined/grouped to create “syllables”. These syllables are what create the words rather than the way individual English letters do.
Very true ^^ – But most letter make the same sounds as in english. There are just some more similiar and some less similiar. But it is always hard to translate languages of they don’t follow the same system. I mean it is a lot easier to translate english into german than korean into german. And there is also the difference of direct language like german (you say every word you need) and context languages like korean (if it was clarfied in a earlier sentence u can leave some words out), etc.
So many differences ^^
Yes in Korean is the first one I noticed.
I hear deh. But it’s actually neh and only sounds like deh to me because it’s “abruptly spoken.” Whatever that means…
@merji1 – It’s because of the placement of the tongue. Here’s a link on the pronunciation https://youtu.be/zhf9NWKHjqE Fast-forward to 1:48
Useless trivia: the popular song language, though not the only one used, in Congo, is Lingala, a pidgeon/slang form of one small group’s language that the Belgians appropriated to speak with all the locals, which was turned into the popular song language by pop stars there from the 50s on. It is a vowel based language, having 7 vowel sounds (unlike English or German or Arabic or Wolof, all consonant based languages). Spanish and Italian are also vowel based, in that the pronunciation of words is created by the mouth forming vowel structures. As a result, most popular Congolese music has no end rhymes, but rather is so chock a block with assonance that end rhyme would be redundant. Similarly, though contrariwise, poetry in Spanish and Italian continued to rhyme far after it became retrograde to do so in English, because English rhyming tends to be consonant based, meaning percussive, whereas Spanish rhymes are melodic–vowel sound. In America, hip hop performers became early on aware of the percussive possibilities of American English endrhymes turning vocals into percussive (dance music) instruments.
Language is so interesting, phonetics, linguistics–when I hear “neh” in Korean is strikes me as an informal affirmation, but “yeh” sounds so much more emphatic, mostly because one is said quickly, the other in a more drawn out sound. But since I only know Korean through these dramas and some popular music, I am only going on intuition. One thing is clear, I love it when someone exasperated says “Ai Goo!” just the way my mother would sigh, “Oy vay!”
Well that was interesting. That is why I don’t like my language german bc it is consonant based which makes it sound very harsh.
I am learning korean but I have to agree with you sometimes you just have a gut feeling about words and the way they sound but it turns out to be completely wrong 😀
Oy vay is yiddish? At least google said that…
Yes, the yiddish woebegone phrase of exasperation at life’s endless troublesome annoyances.Oy vay!
@BE – Oy vay! Omo! Aigoo 😥 and the always useful eotteoke! 😄
@BE – “neh” is the more formal of the two (At least as far as I’ve learned so far. We start with formal so as not to inadvertently be rude to someone.)
I am hesitant to say this, but, oh!
@BE – I’m sorry, but I didn’t understand your response?
어
@BE – outs that you saying “Ahhhh”?
@BE – just to add to that comment I made about being inadvertently rude – that’s what all that “How dare you speak down to me!” dialogue is about in Kdramas. “Lowering your speech” level means one of three things 1) you’re higher in rank/age; 2) you’re family or very good friends; or 3) you’re deliberately being insulting
Well, what I hear are 3 forms of yes: neh or deh depending on how it is articulated, yay or yeh, and oh, which seems the least formal of all, like someone asking if you brought the wine, and you responding, “oh.” The reason I thought yay or yeh was the most emphatic has to do with the way it is spoken and the context therein in these dramas. That is, the other two forms are spoken quickly, whereas the yay sound is spoken all the way out, and seems to be meant to imply an affirmation or concession of what the other person has just told him or her.
In Mr. Sunshine, Gunner Jang will be ordering Ae Shin on how or what to do in a situation, and she responds, “yay.” Now that is a historical drama, and it is not exactly clear in their relationship how the honorifics go–he is older, her teacher, but she is nobility and he is a peasant.
I am from a different culture, one in which informality–So Cal growing up in post WW2–and slang governed both my linguistic and cultural understanding of others. When I taught, I told my students to call me by what they felt most comfortable with, professor, Mr. + my last name, or as someone who has always been called by my first name in every other social situation, by my first name. Community college English students are so antsy, and I wanted to make sure that however they viewed their relationship with their teachers, especially given the vast gulf between my subject mastery and theirs, I could tolerate and adapt to. (I must admit that I wore a tie to the first two weeks of classes, and after that I was as likely to come to class in a tee shirt. I intentionally changed and alternated how I dressed, because I wanted to emphasize to them that learning was on them, not on their teachers, who could only be relied upon so much, the reality being some teachers are lousy, some okay, a few really great, and appearances had little to do with that).
Seeing these dramas, I am coming to realize that even in English, with its encyclopedic vocabulary allowing for precise communication, still tone and context, usage all convey meaning. Everyone knows misunderstandings abound in on line communication–from hear/here on out you can just tell me, “Say what?!”
One semester I was teaching the August Wilson play, Fences–great play. The motif of baseball runs through the entire play, and the phrase “strike three” having the usage meaning derived from the game of “you’re out,’ you lose, and so on is an essential signifier in the play. I had a student from Senegal. She had never seen a game of baseball in her life. She had grown up in a culture where baseball did not exist at all in the popular imagination, let alone by her culture’s so called “national pastime.” I thought to myself when she asked me about it, well gee, for me the phrase “strike three” and what it signifies goes as far back in my memory of language as any phrase I could think of.
@BE – If you get a chance to watch the TTMIK video that I provided on “how to address strangers”, you’ll hear the young lady in the video saying how slowing down the word “ahjumma” as you call out to the restaurant owner makes it more polite (or more accurately, less rude) I’m saying that because of your statement on another comment that you thought the slower “neh” (yes) was less formal that the more softly spoken “yeh”.
I’ve got short answers today as I’m waiting on stuffing and candied yams to cook. 😉
By the way HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
@BE – Here’s a TTMIK video explaining “yes” and “no”. It’s not as simple as “yes” and “no”. lol
https://youtu.be/nRvwaU7NR04
@beez PS BE, my initials, was how I signed my paintings and even with friends, sign off emails or poetry sent to others via email. As you can imagine, I enjoy the pun.
@BE – but I’m still waiting for answers to my questions. The first one was that you responded to my first answer about “neh” by saying you’re hesitant to answer. The second instance is you replied with 어 (which is a syllable used to form words and sounds like aw). I was curious as to what you meant each time?
Hesitant to answer because I was going to make a corny pun joke. You tell me that the word I presented in Hangul is spoken as awwww, but I have only and repeatedly heard it pronounced as OH! So I was making a joke on the pun of yes and oh!
@BE – I don’t know where you’re getting that 어 makes the long “o” sound??? The long “o” is represented by ㅗ.
Neh, Neh. Neh. Neh. Heh.Thanks for the Choi sisters on neh. They are a whole lot more fun, and very good teachers, than that American guy you turned me on to before who explained levels of honorific or lack thereof. All language lessons should be taught by people having so much silly fun while giving them.
I had always recognized all those usages. I do not know if my habits of language would keep me from making them in my own speaking. But I understand all of them, and with subtitles alongside, never have a problem as such. However, sounds I associate with “oh!” and “yay” (phonetic equivalent) or “yea” (as a word conveying a seemingly similar meaning is spelled in English), both less common forms of affirmative response and the when and why, which just from context had appeared to me as such: oh, most informal, offhand; neh, most common, all purpose; yea most reflective and respectful.
Go billy on YouTube has a good explaination on the Korean characters sound and the problem it has when it is Romanized. Look under video “why does ㄴ sound like ㄷ”
For me though, I made it easy for myself by just saying the Words as if I have a cold.
Like try saying ‘miahne” as if you have a cold, and it sounds like “biahne”
Same goes for “Ne” (Yes) which sounds like ‘de’
Frankly English is a pretty weird language. And as Olly from Jolly(another YouTuber) says:
“When it comes to English, it’s anyone best guess”lol
English, particularly American English: no regular vowel sounds and different pronounciation of those sounds by region. No regular phonetic structure (as in Spanish in which structure is regulated by syllable. Also the problem in all indo European languages of inflection rather than context delivering subject and temporal reality. Then of course anomalies like getting on a bus instead of in one. And for me after years of correcting students, the ubiquitous errors–sorry, one can see these misspelled so often that learns the bad habit–there, their, and they’re, it’s and its, and my favorite as a former teacher, should of, when should’ve is the choice that actually makes sense. A ton of impossible to remember rules. The one advantage of English is that the rivers of world languages have poured into it, plus the improvisational nature of language invention by demographic groups not part of the mainstream affecting youth–gigantic vocabulary, thus, allowing for particularity. The karmic palaver and casual lingo of a’ight! Up tight–cool….or really tense.
@BE – yes. I first tried learning Korean by books. Just the alphabet was challenging because some authors seemed to be British and would say pronounce this “a” sound with a short “a” liked in car (caw) and some would seem to be from Boston “like short ‘a’ in car (cah). 😆
@beez say it aloud:
know
kiss
Mrs.
I am not going to spell it out better than that.
@BE – Ahhhhhh head clunk
@beez and k, I enjoy the adoption of bits of foreign language in speech and slang mash ups and I think it is common enough in popular entertainment, having likely bubbled up from youth culture. In Korean since it is so inflected by social relationship, it strikes me that it may also have some sort of subversive element because by all intents and purposes informal hits the linguistic street well before formal, which has to be codified by schools. I would not be surprised given your point K that Korean previously adopted Chinese usages and Japanese usages as well, or even Russian usages.
My best language teacher had his class spend 8 weeks just forming our mouths and making us mindful of tongue and teeth in which we started just by repeating the sounds of words and then rudimentary conversation in Spanish. We did not learn grammar; we did not deal with it in the written form. Really to minutes of mouth structure, kinda like learning to stand correctly to do t’ai chi. He was a phoneticist and a linguist, who also taught indoeuropean lingquitic and phonetic courses (they were taught in Spanish), which taught me more about language than all the courses in any school or program I had ever entered or witnessed. S’like everything else from martial arts to foreign language, a great teacher not only makes a difference, but his or her approach can extend far beyond the subject matter.
Since I do not listen to much Kpop and I have picked up what I know of Korean, much the way I picked up what I know of Lingala, from simply being an avid fan of the popular art, in this case drama, almost by osmosis and immersion. But I do wonder about Kpop a bit. BTS seem to know English. And this might be a vehicle for making more money. But IU seems so far to be content with Asian audiences and yet her songs are filled with not just single words, but phrases as well. In one of her songs, about a young woman out having a good time being inebriated at a party or night club, she not only name checks Darth Vader, but, alluding to the 20th century British novelist Virginia Woolf (may I root a bit for IU here), belts out the line, “Hey Mrs. Dalloway, I love your party!” This is a line likely to fly right by a popular audience in the US. And yes, the singer notes early on over there, so to speak, a couple kisseu. I dig it, bout all I can say.
Finally, it also does seem that sageuks make use of a more antiquated social position embedded Korean, but that still remains a mystery. Does the court speak a different Korean than the jumos and local merchants, workers, slaves?
@BE- i don’t know about your last question, but as to English in Kpop, there have been years and years of articles devoted to how Kpop mixes English phrases into their music and the reasons for it both creatively and financially.
I’m not a huge Kpop fan but I know at one point the leader of BTS (RM short for Rap Monster) is most fluent in English and he learned from watching the American tv show Friends. (Amazing.) But in this last year or so, I’ve seen the other members’ English grow by leaps and bounds.I’m blushing that I know so much about them 😆
I am not a BTS fan myself, but I will say their status as popular music phenomena has taken them beyond boy band ooey gooey into something far more pervasive and cross generational.
I felt somewhat squeamish about following IU at first, especially since she looks ten years younger than she actually is, but I have to say I am a fan, I think she is a popular music genius (check the vid I posted on Reply 1988 and my comment following it), and someone who I find much akin to what I felt about the Beatles in the mid sixties–the irrepressible spirit of youth. But I have come to find that I root for her as an elder; I love the kid’s drive, spunk, talent, and generosity of spirit. She is fun to watch. So I think probably BTS does the same for others, and I am certain that there were folks our age who knew a whole ton about John Lennon by the mid sixties, and were curious about them, and like you knew a whole bunch.
Facts! No one is too old for Kpop ^^
@BE – I really don’t know a lot about BTS. But they are so popular that it’s unavoidable to know the basics, similar to as you said about the Beetles and our parents.
Well I am really into kpop and I know and like a lot of groups and artist but I never got into BTS…
@beez in the ongoing tangent that has taken us from 17th C Joseon to BTS, a thought about orthography, pronunciation, how languages adopt usages, and how being an American English speaker watching K drama hears, listens, learns: it strikes me that while they are currently known, at least in the US as B-T-S, if pronounced as a single word, they are Beets or Beats as in Beatles. And one might connect this to hangul orthographic word construction.
@BE – they could possibly have had the link to the Beatles in mind as I’ve seen them compare themselves to “the British invasion” of the 60’s. But here’s their groups full name – from Wikipedia:
The group’s name, BTS, stands for the Korean expression Bangtan Sonyeondan (Korean: 방탄소년단; Hanja: 防彈少年團), literally meaning “Bulletproof Boy Scouts”.
But here’s a link to an article from some years back and what the acronyms for a few groups stand for (although these groups may no longer be popular these days)
https://1drv.ms/w/s!AvE2-hpAQD16-2HO538IsOu4pFmV
@beez–ah, well then the serendipity of the name of a boy band invading American (and world wide) consciousness being pronounced as a single phoneme that has a real chime to it is merely a part of my personally addled pattern recognition sensibility. Nonetheless, I might have made some money as their publicist early on throwing that idea out there. And now they would be known as THE BTS! Yuk. Can’t beat em with a stick.
@BE – I wonder what you think of this – I am personally aggravated by the “taught incorrectly” English words that have become so much a part of the Korean language that Korean millennials don’t even know that they are adopted words. It bugs me because it seems so obvious, the way they slow down to pronounce and enunciate com-pute-ter and ice cream, for example. It seems the very fact that they slow down should inform them.
Yet, I was watching a Korean talk-variety show called Non Summit aka Abnormal Summit which consists of 3-4 Korean hosts and foreigners who are fluent in Korean, discussing cultural differences. On one episode, the French representative was extremely rude (while not intending to be) to the French-Canadian rep.
But he could not accept that the language that French-Canadians speak is French. He viewed it as an aberration and abhorrent mangling of his language. My heart didn’t like it because I’m familiar with many French-Canadians and I’m used to their mixing of English and French (Detroit is right across the border from the part of Canada that hangs down so we visited Windsor’s beaches every weekend in the summer).
And yet, I experience the same reaction as the French gentlemen to Konglish (coined by Dramabeans). Not that I would ever express that to a Korean person, even though I wish so badly that someone would tell them that “restaurong” is not how you pronounce “restaurant” and many other words.
Oh, and let me add that the “t” on the ends of words does not mean add a very strong “tah”. Night is not “night-tah”. Whew! I needed to voice that somewhere. But then again, our British friends might feel that American-English is a butchered version of English. I need to just wrap my mind around it and stop being so snobbish about it but I’m still in my feelings of how it makes me involuntarily cringe to hear it.
Well, I am not clear if you are speaking of shows in English from Korea or Korean American English as Konglish. Some things I know: no first gen immigrant group in the US EVER has adopted a spoken version of American syntactical English. It is first learned by kids in school, and really only a phenomenon in the next generation when the child learns English in the home through prespeech listening.
Pronunciation is specifically a function of listening and from earliest speech articulating phonemes in the mouth to structure the sound accurately. Of course, actors are seemingly able to be trained, and some folks who really work at it with conscious attention, but that is not most of us.
Spanish is probably the most widely spoken non English language in the US these days. From first speech, all spoken Spanish is formed by syllable, why English speakers have such a hard time speaking it when we tend to have the unconscious habit of forming our language by whole words. Sometimes because of how syllables are formed in Spanish the last sound of one word, a short sound of another (usually in a form in which a letter might be elided with an apostrophe placer, and the beginning sound of third word can be contained all in the same syllable. At the same time “s” sounds in Spanish never, never, never initiate a syllable, and thus I spee-keh Spa-nish.
When I moved to Texas, some local pronunciations cracked me up. I live near the town of Llano, not yawn-oh as I presumed it would be called but lllllaaaah-no. I was trying my darndest to find Machaca Blvd in Austin when I first moved here. I stopped and asked several people who looked at me like I was crazy when I was doing my best to pronounce it with correct Spanish inflection, when some old guy said to me, “you mean, Mahyan-shack (or when spoken quickly “manshack”)?
I never was a real stickler. Before I went back to school to teach, I wrote poetry without any punctuation at all, all lower case, because I wanted to develop my ability to amplify meaning. I hated being kids being students’ mechanics monitor, and I did not like my fellow teachers who actually had a weaker understanding of punctuation and syntax than I did being so uptight (though I could never cozy up to would of, could of, should of, because of the absolute head bang against the refrigerator door of meaning in those phonetically caused errors.
These days my eyes are gone, and I pitifully make simple errors, comma usage errors, pronoun antecedent errors, all of em seemingly, in part cause I am too lazy to proof read, in part because I had my eyes immersed in them millions and millions of times for decades.
When I was young I would take a whole month to revise a ten line poem, maybe 50 revisions. Then I spent decades grading community college writing. Except that it is embarrassing to have people know I taught English and now my writing is an obstacle course of minor error, I dunno being 74 means I get to not care much about a lot of things.
However, you worked in a legal field. Accuracy in language, or should I say inaccuracy is very well likely to have instilled an error cringe in your sensability. Police people, hospital people, business people in admin positions over the years have complained to me the loudest about what a lousy job folks like me have done with young people’s English usage. And my experience is native speakers who have been told all their lives about their mistakes have as many problems as first and second gen Americans.
As a poet, I am lucky cause I love the way language evolves, and weird accidents. After years of correcting them, I made a principle of “always using the incorrect homonym,” and thus may I say, know kiss Mrs.
One thing watching these shows and listening to some pop music makes me wonder, however, what does the fact that the word “kiss” with Korean phonetic inflection is so widely used in drama and music? Is “kiss” just a catchier way to say it? I am quite astonished that so much contemporary Korean has adopted so much English vocabulary.
No, the show is fully spoken in Korean with Korean hosts and foreign guests who are fluent in Korean. I would never consider Korean-Americans as speaking “Konglish”. (Not my twem, but a term coined by Korean-Americans) I’m sorry, I thought you were in on the conversation here on Kfangurl’s site (forget which thread) where we talked about when Korean actors speak English in the shows, adhering to the way it’s written in the script versus when those who are fluent in English speak naturally.
That’s interesting what you said about pronouncing Spanish. I suppose that I’d make Spanish speaking people cringe (or laugh) with my lazy sounding pronunciation. But I’ve given up on trying to roll my rrrrrrrrrr’s long ago.
And yes, I’ve noticed that things that I used to know are wrong, you see them so often now in news articles and even in ads, until they no longer seem incorrect.
Nobody seems to care, even in giant print ads and on billboards the difference between “your” and “you’re”.
You lost me with kiss and Mrs as homonyms?
I think it makes total sense that English words are so prevalent in Korean society. When you consider the history of the Korean war and where Korea was at economically at the time and the American presence. Koreans over 80 were grateful to America and tended to pass that impression down to their children. It’s very interesting to see their children’s children starting to question and rebel against a system that said everything American is cool and “better”. They’ve come into their own, so to speak.
I don’t have insight on this, but I do know that a lot of English words have been absorbed into the Korean language in its Koreanized form, ie, they aren’t actually considered English in their usage, but rather, as words that came from English. So when we hear words like “kisseu” used in a Korean sentence, from the speaker’s point of view, they have not actually mashed up the sentence to include an English word. I wonder if this is a contributing factor to what you’re describing? 🤔
@kfangurl – Yes. That’s exactly what I’m describing. I think they must know that “kiss” is not pronounced that way because they hear it in American film and tv (just as we hear common words used all the time on Korean film and tv). Plus Koreans have their own word for kiss so I don’t get why they’d prefer to use the English word 95% of the time (these are my own made up stats, of course). For instance, I understand why “coffee” is pronounced “coppi” (romanized as “gabi” because of the difficulty pronouncing “f” but I wonder is there no Korean word for coffee. (I get that there might not be if the product coffee was introduced from the west.) But it’s the fact that the added syllable for an ending “t” is purposefully taught that way (“tah”) which is annoying. If it were just some students mistakenly emphasizing it, then that would be fine. But the fact that it’s taught that way so that when Koreans who are English fluent have to pronounced it that way for other Koreans to understand the word – that’s what annoys me the most. I’m working on trying to let it go. ☺
The reason that English is taught that way, is because they romanize English words using Hangul, to make it accessible to students. Japan does the same. So because there is no “z” sound in Hangul, pizza is pronounced as “pijja” in Korean. My point, though, is that when they are speaking Korean, these words are considered newer additions to the Korean language, rather than English words being mashed into a Korean sentence. When that is the case, the original English pronunciation is no longer relevant to the discussion.
@kfangurl – I guessss so. I get what you’re saying. I’m not so much angry with the speakers as with the teachers (or rather the original system of teaching). Likewise, as I’ve struggled with learning Korean – I feel like the “steps” are missing in most programs to achieve a natural progression. It seems a lesson will suddenly become so advanced that I’m like “whoa! did we skip 5-6 steps here? I’ve started several different programs without much by way of progress. I’m doing Pimsleur now and lo and behold! – I’m suddenly understanding what my Korean dramas are saying! The method is so simple that I don’t even really understand why or how it works, especially with my memory issues. Now if I’d only do one lesson a day like I’m supposed to instead of one or two a week – I can only imagine how much farther I would be now. New goals! A lesson everyday. 👍
A lesson every day sounds like a good goal! 😀 Do eet! And then teach us everything we don’t know! 😀
Ha! I don’t ever think I’ll be totally fluent at this rate. Maybe some miracle will happen and the local community center will have classes where I can practice with other newbies. Unfortunately since I’ve moved to Florida, I’m out of contact with the few people that I knew who could speak Korean. Like my former Tae Kwon do Master – I wouldn’t dare bother him. I could’ve approached his sons back then; but unfortunately, at the time that I was surrounded by Koreans, I had no idea that I would become so interested and immersed in their cultured. I’ve heard there are apps where you can become language exchange buddies with native speakers. Does anyone know the names of those apps?
@Prashil Prakash – you literally made laugh out loud. I often try to keep my lips tight (in a mumble) because to me Koreans do the opposite of enunciate their language.