Welcome to the Open Thread, everyone! It’s surreal to think that we are at the end of this journey. Thank you for joining me, in enjoying this very special, beautiful show. ❤️
Some announcements, before we begin:
1. There is no Spoiler Zone this week, since this is the final Open Thread. You can discuss everything about the show now, without spoiler tags!
2. If you’d like to check out my review of My Mister, you can find it here.
3. I’ll be putting up a brainstorming post on what we should watch next as a community, you can check it out here, and share your inputs too!
My thoughts
Episode 15
What a pivotal episode this works out to be, not only for our story, but for Dong Hoon and Ji An as characters.
The moment Dong Hoon starts to reach out to Ji An, to acknowledge that he knows about her wiretapping him, everything starts to shift.
As much as Ji An is addicted to the sounds of Dong Hoon and his life, the amount of guilt and shame that she appears to experience, at being found out, feels equivalent in measure. And the closer Dong Hoon gets to actually reaching Ji An, the more panicked Ji An is, at the prospect of him possibly finding her.
Although it’s a complicated situation where Ji An is running from the law, it seems to me, that her primary reason for wanting to avoid being found by Dong Hoon, is the guilt and shame that she feels, for doing him wrong. The urgency with which Ji An packs up and runs, is so visceral; I can feel it through my screen.
And it feels like the more she runs, the more the guilt mounts – until she breaks down in the middle of the street, eking out her ten apologies, the way Dong Hoon had once told Manager Kim to apologize. Oof.
The way she cries, is so raw and vulnerable. In the context of how impassive and stoic Ji An’s shown herself capable of being, this feels particularly momentous.
At the same time, the more elusive Ji An is, the more determined Dong Hoon becomes, in reaching out to her. I feel it’s a deep-reaching decision that he makes, to discuss it with Yoon Hee, to agree to being candid about her affair, all to set Ji An free from the burden of being on the run indefinitely.
I mean, Dong Hoon had once been determined to live with this secret, telling himself over and over, that it’s nothing, as long as nobody knows about it. And now, for Ji An’s sake, he’s willing to let everyone know about it, because he wants to set her free. That’s really sacrificial of him, isn’t it?
I’m also struck by the fact that, in Dong Hoon’s conversation with Yoon Hee, the overall tone of their conversation about Ji An, is that of compassion.
Even when Yoon Hee talks about picking up on the fact that Ji An likes Dong Hoon, and that it was likely the sound of Dong Hoon’s voice, that kept her going, there’s no anger, hatred, jealousy or judgment. Instead, I find compassion for Ji An, as a fellow human being, and I like that a lot.
It’s all so.. serene and calm, like Yoon Hee’s finally at peace, now that she and Dong Hoon have decided to come clean about her infidelity.
The urgency growing in Dong Hoon, as time passes, and he still doesn’t hear from Ji An, feels like a big deal, because Dong Hoon is typically so measured and easygoing. I found it poignant to see him randomly talking to his phone, with increasing urgency, because he wants to find Ji An that badly.
When Cleaning Ahjusshi calls Dong Hoon, out of concern for Ji An, who’s injured, and refusing to eat or drink, the way Dong Hoon takes off running, says so much. Even though he knows where she is now, it’s like he doesn’t want to wait an additional second than absolutely necessary, to see her.
That moment when Dong Hoon enters that room where Ji An’s huddled, feels so complex and nuanced. The look in Dong Hoon’s eyes is filled with what looks to be a mix of relief, trepidation, and.. pain, like it pains him to see Ji An like this. On Ji An’s part, the moment she realizes Dong Hoon is right there, she looks terrified, guilty and ashamed.
This is so different from the Ji An whom we’ve come to know, that it honestly throws me a little.
Of course, in typical Ji An fashion, she goes for the offensive, because, with everything stripped away, that’s just the kind of feral cat that she’s learned to be. Attack, or be attacked; that’s how she’s survived all these years, and that’s what she defaults to, now that she feels threatened.
Dong Hoon, however, isn’t even fazed by this, and attacks in his own way – with kindness and compassion.
“Thanks. You listened to everything going on in my pathetic life… and yet, you took my side. So thank you. Thanks. I shouldn’t want for anything else in my life now.
I can’t… stand seeing you in pain because you pity me. And I… can’t stand the fact that you’re so pitiful. How could someone as young as you… How could someone as young as you… feel so sorry for an adult like me… That… breaks my heart too much for me to bear.
If I can’t show you that I’m living a happy life… you’ll continue to be in pain because of me. And when I think of you, in pain because of me… I will be in so much pain, that I won’t be able to go on.
So, just watch. All right? Just you watch! Watch and see just how happily I live my life. None of this is a big deal. Being humiliated? People gossiping about how my life is ruined? None of that is a big deal. I can live a happy life. I won’t be broken. I will be happy. I’ll be happy.”
It’s profound, the way Dong Hoon cuts to the heart of the matter, to the things that are really important. It’s because Dong Hoon cuts through all of the excuses and pretense, to the heart of it all, that Ji An meets him there, “I really want… you to be truly happy, Mister!,” and then breaks down sobbing, all her defenses gone. 😭
I’m so glad that Dong Hoon brings Ji An to Jung Hee after having her arm treated at the hospital, because Jung Hee really is the warmest, most welcoming person that I could have asked for, to take care of Ji An.
The way Jung Hee plays it, it’s like Ji An’s doing her a favor, by staying with her, and I love that. I love that Jung Hee looks genuinely glad to have Ji An with her, and takes her under her wing so naturally. If not for the fact that Ji An needs to get things sorted out legally, I’d actually like Ji An to stay with Jung Hee indefinitely.
The scene where Ji An deletes the wiretapping app from her phone, feels so profound. She’s so used to hearing Dong Hoon’s footsteps, and the sound of his voice, and his breathing, that it feels like she’s cutting off a lifeline, in uninstalling that app.
Her world literally goes silent, the moment she deletes the app; it feels like she’s cutting off a crutch, and now has to learn how to walk on her own, all over again.
I really like Chairman Jang. He’s so wise, and above all, so kind. Even though Dong Hoon tells him everything over lunch, and expresses his decision to resign from his post, Chairman Jang won’t allow Dong Hoon to do something so hasty, and insists that they think about it for a while.
Not only that, he also earnestly instructs Dong Hoon to get Ji An to call him, once she’s done paying for her crimes.
Ahh. He’s a good man. I really, really like him.
This episode, Kwang Il finally gets to confront his complicated feelings for Ji An, a little bit, when he listens back on the recordings, and finds the one where she talks about his complex feelings for her, and her, for him.
“He used to be a kind person. He used to be nice to me. And sometimes, when his dad used to hit me… he tried to stop him, and he would get hit instead of me. Back then… the look in his eyes wasn’t the same as it is now. Kwang Il.. He…is being tormented by his memories of the time that he liked me… and I… am tormented by the memories of when he was nice to me.”
Ji An’s words summarize it all, and hit Kwang Il right in the heart, it seems, from the tear that spills from his eye. It feels like this single sentence makes him feel seen, perhaps too seen, and that’s why he tries to seek Ji An out so aggressively afterwards.
At the same time, when Kwang Il begins to realize that he’s lost all traces of Ji An, and may never actually find her again, there’s a sense of loss about him that feels deep and raw. Ji An’s been a part of his life for so long, and means so many complicated things to him, that it feels like he might not know what to do with himself, without the assurance that she’s there, if he needs to see her.
On a tangent, I have to confess that I found it endearing, that Ki Hoon and Sang Hoon would take it upon themselves to live somberly, because of the hard time that Dong Hoon is going through.
It’s a little ridiculous and extreme, sure, but it’s also kinda sweet, that they care this much about Dong Hoon, and feel that it’s only right that they feel pain, if he feels pain. Aw. The solidarity!
I like the scene where Ji An sits with the gang at Jung Hee’s bar, and is treated like one of them.
To them, this feels like the most natural thing in the world, and to Ji An, this is likely one of the most precious experiences in the world. She’s never had a community to belong to, and now, just like that, she has people who are so warm and kind to her, without her having to do anything but be herself.
It feels like such a big step forward, when Ji An tells Jung Hee that if she were to be born again, she’d like to be born into this neighborhood. I mean, Ji An had previously talked about not wanting to be reborn; she’d been so jaded with life.
And now, Jung Hee’s telling Ji An happily, that yes, they will meet in the next life, and just thinking about it makes her happy. Ji An’s forming connections and finding comfort in those connections, and that.. comforts me.
Episode 16
Ahh. What a beautiful, beautiful ending.
I don’t know if it actually crystalized for me the same way, during my first watch, but this time around, watching this finale, it was a lot clearer to me, that this journey, for our characters, was one of coming to a place where they could find healing and comfort, for themselves.
There can and should be people to help you along the way, but the most important part of the healing, has to happen on your own, from within.
What we see in the first part of the finale, is still not yet the part where our characters start to heal on their own.
I love, so much, how Dong Hoon and his entire community come to Ji An’s aid, when Gran passes away.
Sang Hoon’s gesture, of spending his savings on making Gran’s funeral as grand and full of pomp as possible, is so kind, and it’s endearing to me, that he gains so much satisfaction from doing this.
More than that, though, it really feels like Dong Hoon’s community has absorbed Ji An as one of their own. It feels so important and so precious, particularly at such a vulnerable time in Ji An’s life, when she’s lost the only family that she has in the world.
I also love how Dong Hoon basically drops everything, in order to be there for her, from her going to the morgue to identify Gran’s body and hold her, one last time, to supporting her through the entire wake and funeral, and even helping her to find a crematorium and columbarium.
In asking Ji An to call him, when Gran passed, Dong Hoon had pledged his complete support, and it’s so touching, really, to see it all play out.
I also wanted to say, I loved that Ji An touched her forehead to Gran’s urn, and then touched her forehead again, to Gran’s niche, because it’s always been her signature bonding thing, with Gran. It feels comforting to know that she’s still able to find a way to express her love for and closeness with Gran, even though Gran has now passed. So poignantly beautiful, I thought.
On Kwang Il’s side of things, it appears that hearing Ji An’s honest, non-judgmental words about him, has really awakened him to the part of himself that he’s lost. And, seeing as how he works so hard to get those recording files to Dong Hoon, for Ji An’s sake, he wants to reclaim that part of himself, finally.
That is encouraging to see, honestly.
And, jumping ahead a little bit, I also just wanted to say that I’m glad for Ki Hoon as well, that he does eventually find his way back to his passion for film, after stoically avoiding it for so long.
I love that Ji An texts Dong Hoon to ask him to buy her a meal, and they meet at their now-regular bar-restaurant. This has become their little place, and I like that idea of familiarity and regularity, between them. I also like that the tone of their conversations is, as before, friendly and matter-of-fact.
It’s sad that Ji An is moving to Busan, but on further thought, it makes sense to me, that she would want a chance for a fresh start, in a place where she doesn’t have any history, so that she can write a new history for herself.
The goodbye is teary and poignant, and it feels like there is a lot that Ji An and Dong Hoon might want to say to each other, but can’t. However, I’m glad for that hug that Ji An asks for, and finally gets, and I’m also glad for the watery “Fighting!” that they say to each other.
It feels like they are each cheering the other on, to the next stage of their journeys; a stage that they can only take alone.
Ji An needs to heal alone, and Dong Hoon does, too.
In that scene, where Dong Hoon starts crying in his living room, after Yoon Hee’s left to go to the US, I’d wondered for a bit, why he was crying. And I came to the conclusion, that he’s crying for himself. His whole life, Dong Hoon’s been measured and placid, almost always bottling things up, so as not to worry others. And now, I feel like he’s finally crying for himself.
And that’s the first step to healing, isn’t it? While it hurts my heart to see Dong Hoon weep, it also feels necessary and cathartic for him.
I feel like the time skip is essentially time for both Dong Hoon and Ji An to heal, on their own, and rebuild their lives, in ways that would support their desire to live happy lives.
I’m glad to see Dong Hoon set up his own company, just like Yoon Hee had once encouraged him to do. He really does look happier doing his own thing, and what a bonus, that he confirms that he does actually make more money now, than when he’d worked for Saman E&C.
I’m also happy to see Ji An settled in her new job, and getting along well with her new colleagues. It’s nice to see her finally not have constant bags under her eyes. She finally looks fresh and well-rested, not just from a rough couple of nights, but from many rough years in her life.
I think it’s perfect, that the way Ji An finds Dong Hoon at the coffeeshop, is by picking his voice out of a crowd, and following it.
That’s from hours and hours of listening to his voice, and becoming familiar with the timber of it, such that, even in a crowded coffeeshop with many different voices speaking at the same time, she can’t help but single out his voice, from among them all.
Like Ji An had talked about before, Dong Hoon looks genuinely glad to see her, and she, to see him.
It’s so poignant and warm at the same time, how Dong Hoon asks to shake her hand, just once. And she, in turn, tells him that she’d like to buy him a delicious meal, just once.
Show leaves it open to interpretation, in terms of what happens next, for Dong Hoon and Ji An, but y’know what, where I am right now, it doesn’t even matter.
I know that they are deeply, warmly grateful for each other, for the other person having been there, for the most difficult and trying times of their lives, and being that guiding light and helping hand, when they’d each felt their most lost and hopeless.
That’s precious, and enduring, and can never be taken away from them. I believe that whatever happens, they will always be precious and special to each other, and that this connection will transcend whatever necessary – circumstances, definition, obstacles – so that it will not be broken. ❤️
I have watched e15 and e16 multiple times and always come away with something new. DH and JA are able to say they love each other in so many ways. Even YH can see DH love for JA and then YH decides they should come forward and reveal everything. DH frantic search for JA and then finding her hiding like a feral cat. His look when he sees her is all about his love for her. In the hospital JA asks if DH really doesn’t hate her and he says when you know someone, really know someone DH is really saying when you know someone and love them there is a point you don’t care what they do. JA hears this declaration of love and completely relaxes because DH is telling her what she has longed for. There is no doubt in my mind they find a solid way back to each other and have a life of true love.
Hi. I’ve just finished watching — & re-watching — the series & thus stumbled upon this wonderful place!
What a poignant drama! I’m so sad that i had once chosen Mr Sunshine over My Mister. I mean Mr Sunshine is so good as well — but good sad, but My Mister is at another level! I love it SO MUCH & it made me cry so much 😭
I just wanna point out that you may have left a very profound scene — in which dear sweet & so cute Halmonie — signed about how Ji An should repay Dong Hoon — by being happy! It’s one of my favourite scene after she passed.
And having that disclosed to the audience after her wake & watching the Hugye boys playing football is so poignant yet so warm.
Please suggest another kdrama for me — Kamsahamnida 🫰
Hi there Sch8nza, welcome to the blog, I’m glad you found us! ❤️ Yes, this is a very special show indeed, and I would personally agree with your take, that this is superior to Mr. Sunshine. 😁
In terms of another drama, have you tried Call It Love? It’s kinda like My Mister, but with romance. I really enjoyed it, and I think you might too. ❤️
Welcome, Sch8nza! I second the recommendation for Call It Love, in that the two shows have a similar vibe. Here in the US, it streams on Netflix. My wife and I gave it an A.
But if your request is broader — what shows are of similar quality? — those of us who frequent this blog and KFG’s Patreon site have plenty of others to recommend!
Welcome, Sch8na, to the coolest water cooler on earth! You will find lots of diverse folk here united by their passion for K-drama, and a great, fun community to boot.
Now, something better than My Ahjussi, well, that’s a tall order. But something wonderful to watch….so many choices, depending on what you like. If you want the feels + romance, as the redoubtable KFG and merij1 suggested, you could do much, much worse than Call It Love. I loved it, too. On the more serious side of life, there’s also Misaeng (Incomplete Life), which is a workplace/coming of age drama, with wonderful acting. In a totally different direction, there’s Hotel Del Luna, with IU from MA, which I am apparently the only one on this site who liked but was a big hit nonetheless. It’s a fantasy with an anti-romance.
Whatever you choose, I hope you’ll share it here and contribute to our little discussions from time to time.
Hi j3ffc, were you really the only one on this site who apparently liked Hotel del Luna? Too funny! 🙂 I enjoyed it, especially seeing IU play such an expressive diva character, but I really wanted her to get together with her old love, not necessarily the modern hotelier. Oh well.
Sch8nza it really is such a special story, isn’t it? The way the writer tied in halmeoni and let us still get to know her after she had passed away was so beautiful.
Each time I watch My Mister I notice even more details. In fact, someone recently pointed out that Ae Ryeon (Dong Hoon’s sister-in-law) is crying and wipes her face after she urges everyone to toast the Monk in episode 14, and I went back and watched it – and she really is wiping her eyes like crazy! Who knew!
As for another drama, have you watched It’s Okay to Not Be Okay? Or Healer? Both are pretty darn good, with moving character development, funny moments, and amazing acting. IOTNBO also has a wonderful soundtrack.
@Sch8nza – this is the best place! I suggest checking out Fangurl’s Full List of Shows here. I have watched all of the A rated and most of the B rated. You cannot go wrong with this list! It is so helpful and once you watch the drama, you can then read her reviews which are always, always excellent. 💟
It’s been a while! KFG, I know you skim all these comments so just a note that I hope you’re doing well. 🙂 This summer got a bit out-of-control and I had to take a break here right at the Heard it Through the Grapevine group watch. Feels like ages ago.
@MariaF @actionscript and others: A lingering question that I have not had time to look into: Do you recall off the top of your head if Dong Hoon was actually demoted (and, more importantly, paid less) when he was moved from the Design Team to the Safety Team? I had the strong impression it was a lateral move, but I re-read an old post on Soompi where even I said he had been demoted.
Actually, I’m going to post this on the Ep 13 – 14 spoiler thread, where there are fewer comments and it will be easier to pick up discussion. 🙂
@MariaF @the_sweetroad – I tried to watch ep10 in the wee hours this morning. My plan was to ffwd trying to find the slap, but – DANG IT! – I got engrossed in it 😡 but then fell asleep 🤬.
I’m going to be pretty busy the next 2 days but I’m determined, I’m going to see this slap.
@Beez, It’s a good episode, isn’t it? 🙂
Keep going – it’s at the very, very end. Part of the context is that slimeball CEO Do Joon Young wants her to produce results in the next 2 days, and that plays into her confession. But it’s a real, raw confession from her. The goading…maybe not as real.
beez, let me know when and where you find the “hidden gems”.
Consider that in addition to sharing the same values in terms of family, they also have the same love for the neighborhood. She wishes to be reborn there. I really, really found it disappointing that in the end the wife couldn’t get to see it through DH and JA’s eyes (or the viewers, and possibly even his kid’s -at least he appreciates his extended family-). I thought that with the scene where she accepts his offer and asks him to buy her beer, she would have turned the page and found a newfound appreciation, seeing things more through Ji An’s eyes (after all, the neighborhood comes together for JA’s grandma’s funeral, and she is there as well). DH’s brother ever pays the funeral out of his own pocket, with all his possessions.
Re: ambiguity, it’s not clear to me his wife’s plans for the future… I mean, given he different legal system I don’t know how transferable her skillset would be in the US
Also, about what is the source of income supposed to be while she is studying there. I mean, he did get a promotion, but then he had to build his own company, which would have required some capital investments, and while she was wealthy, I am sure that the cost of living wouldn’t be a joke, and living multiple years without a source of revenue would be an issue.
Not sure they mention what she is going to study, maybe English, which seems kind of strange to me, in terms of her age/skillset.
Most surprising fact on rewatch was realizing that there was a sister in law in the US, while I always had the impression their kid was staying in a boarding school. Still, we basically never see her, she is mentioned only once in passing, is not in any of the photos. He is basically living alone, away from his parents.
I kind of makes you wonder how little the woman is mentioned.
Adds another person to wonder about why is missing in the photos, apart from DH.
Seeing the scene where Ji An finally makes her appreciate Dong Hoon calling her to ask whether she needed anything, I was stuck at the parallel, like a closing circle, with the first episode.
In the first episode, she has the first scene with her lover, where she attacks him over not carrying a second phone, accusing him of not wanting to contact her, and questioning his commitment. She checked the phone 15 times a day.
On the other hand, she ghosts Dong Hoon and his family’s marriage event in order to be with her lover. He is disappointed. She does that frequently -only to then blame him for being there without him-, like in episode 7. We later learn that she tried to do them favors and spend time with his brothers in an attempt to get into Dong Hoon’s graces, so he would accept to let her mold him into who she wanted him to be. Then resented him for him not letting her change a core part of his personality and life (it would be the same as asking Ji An to distance herself from her grandma).
Compare this with Dong Hoon’s brother paying Ji An’s grandma’s funerals with most (all?) his possessions, without expecting anything in return. We see how the neighborhood comes together with her for the funeral, how Dong Hoon’s friend houses her no questions asked.
His wife sees it too, yet I don’t think she ever fully appreciates the value of this extended family, of this community, the way she (finally) ends up appreciating Dong Hoon calling her. She gets her nuclear family, living abroad with the kid, but Ji An, Dong Hoon and the viewer see the beauty in the neighborhood, their simple, beautiful humanity, their quick acceptance of anyone that genuinely wants to be a part of them (like Ji An). So the viewer knows that she is missing out on something truly precious, only because she never really wanted to fit in with them, but was biding her time, waiting to mold Dong Hoon.
Anyway, he is disappointed in her missing the event, and even more disappointed at her not calling him all day (he always calls her to ask whether she needs something). Back at home, she reorders some clothes after her day at the beach, and they talk about the day.
He is generic about the wedding, embarrassed that his brothers stole gift money (and he was the only one not knowing of the plan) and his brother publicly fought with his wife.
But when she asks about herself and the wedding (everyone is now habituated to her missing events, they are surprised when she shows up), he just shuts down, swallowing down the pain, bottling everything up. The disappointment at her making excuses (lies) to miss the event, spurning someone precious to him, his family.
Fortunately, he does not know that she did it to be with his worst enemy. The disappointment of her not calling him all day. Compare this with her active approach, reaching out and fighting her lover for not calling her. An interesting parallel. Dong Hoon calls his wife, who calls her lover. The thread does not go back.
We see from the fight with her lover that she waits his calls impatiently. But later we see her treat Dong Hoon’s calls to ask whether she needs anything snappily, taking her frustrations out on him. And in this chapter, we see her appreciate the gesture for the kindness that it entail, the message of “I am thinking about you, about your needs, every time I come home”.
I think it spurned a new appreciation of her for him. Which is why I didn’t quite get the open ended finale (while understanding that it allows everyone to imagine what they wish in their future). Her living abroad, alone with her kid. Well, she got the nuclear family she wished, but what did she miss in that little special neighborhood!
Wondering whether their mother knows of the affair in the end, or the neighborhood (apart, of course, his brothers). The colleagues at work obviously know because it involved someone from his company, but maybe the police did not divulge this information to the public at large. I don’t get the feeling that anyone besides the people at the office know (and his brothers, and the people that already knew), otherwise the interaction with his mother would have been very different (the interaction with his friends at work certainly was).
It was unfortunate that Dong Hoon’s wife, even after witnessing the kindness and acceptance of the neighborhood, his brother’s willingness to pay for Ji An’s grandma’s funeral with all his possessions, without asking or expecting anything in return (compare this with her own favors to his family and time spent with his brothers, done with the intent of ingratiating herself to Dong Hoon, biding her time and trying to mold him into something she wanted).
Not sure if she fully grasped their value, or ever saw them with the eyes of Ji An, Dong Hoon, maybe her own child (his extended family, at least), and with the eyes of the public, that appreciates their value. They were so accepting to those that really wanted to fit in with them (see them at Ji An’s grandma’s funeral, see them housing her, see his brother pay for the funeral with everything he has).
In the end, however, she goes abroad to live with her son… well, at least she has realized her ideal of the nuclear family -her and her son-. Would have lied the show to have elaborated on this (why are the new photos only with her and the kid? Why is Dong Hoon nowhere in there? Does he/they never visit?). This was really a show where I wish I could see the continuation with a sequel, though I understand that the finale answers all the questions the authors wanted to answer.
Yeah, the contrasts really matter in the scene post time-skip. The fact that he used to have a family photo on his desk, and now there are 3 photos of just Yoon Hee and Ji Seok. To me, that seems to firmly establish Yoon Hee’s presence in the US. But YH and Dong Hoon are still on good terms (enough for her to send him photos and for him to frame them!) so that’s good.
And I mentioned this earlier (multiple times throughout all these threads, haha) but the fact that he called Yoon Hee “chib saram”(wife) several times throughout the show (ep 2, 10, 15 x 2, 16) and then at the very end referred to her as “ae omma” (my kid’s mom) shows a distancing in their relationship, not an even-closer relationship. These things were done on purpose, I believe. Viki has the correct subtitles; Netflix does not.
And while he’s reflecting a more distant relationship with Yoon Hee than previously, he calls Ji An “Ji An” instead of “Ji An-ssi” or “Lee Ji An” at the end. This reflects a closer relationship with Ji An than before! Even if it’s just in his mind, it’s still closer. Many of us think it’s actually a future conversation between DH and JA, though, an idea I totally get on board with. 🙂
All that to say, the more I watch the show, the more firmly I believe that show’s trajectory for YH and DH is toward divorce. And show’s trajectory for DH and Ji An is for them to be back in each other’s lives in Seoul. I think it will be of a romantic nature – they already loved each other deeply, and we know he already thought of her as pretty and nice. If he’s a free man at the end, and if Ji An still loves him (which I think her eyes show she does when she sees him again at the cafe)….then these two whole, stable, thriving people could be very happy together in the future.
@the_sweetroad
I agree! But you already know that😊
@MariaF,❤️ 😊
In fact, your comments, logical insights, and observations during the group watch helped me be even more confident.
Thank you! Same here. 🎈
I think we had a truly thoughtful, insightful conversations during the group watch. Even our disagreements didn’t create tensions, but helped us to see the versatility of the show and it’s characters.
Absolutely. I spent so much time on these threads during the group watch! Haha. And learned so much.
I just finished another re-watch, and noticed even more elements. For example, @actionscript had pointed out that he heard a siren in some of the scenes, and he didn’t know if it was deliberate or a coincidence. When I re-watched, I noticed several more siren scenes, and the siren always sounded in key moments of Dong Hoon or Ji An’s story (or both). So my conclusion is it must be deliberately added in. Which just shows how much Show values “show, don’t tell.” 🙂 🙂
Regarding Ji An, I think that she finally realized how good she was to her husband, and it kind of humbled her given the way she treated him.
Regarding him opening his own company, I cringed a bit at the reference to his wife’s plan, because that was a self serving, manipulative request (playing up his supposed insecurities at working under a younger person), and he had very good reasons to fear this step (he needed to maintain his family, his brother had multiple failed business and he saw how it destroyed his family, forcing him to take care of both his brothers). His wife only told him that he could find a new job if he failed (doubtful, with what references, those of the boss that was sleeping with his wife, that kept trying to fire him and continued to put him down? if the job marked was so easy they wouldn’t be in their current company being put down and bullied), but he was also worried about the responsibility towards his eventual subordinates.
You cannot really use success in the future to predict success in the past. In the future he had more confidence, more capital, and his family was economically secure, so he was not responsible for them anymore. He also had the experience of managing at a higher lever thanks to his promotion at his previous job.
Note that when his wife proposed him this, she was convinced nobody would follow him (show how she knew him… he was beloved by his team, and people did follow him when he opened his own company), and told him to mortage his house. She was doing this because she wanted him out of the company when she divorced him and went official with his younger boss and worst enemy. This means that the business was destined to be a complete disaster, as his confidence would be crushed and he would be emotionally shattered by the blow (with no Ji An to help) right during the crucial startup phase of the business. It’s easy to see that while it might have been a good idea *now*, it would have been suicide then.
This is the reason I found the reference to his wife’s suggestion disturbing: they were completely different circumstances, and in order not to feel bad about herself she was ready to get him to risk his house on a project where she didn’t expect others to follow him, that was destined to failure given her purpose was to get him to leave when she divorced him for his worst enemy, and in a moment in time when his entire family was relying on him to bring home the money.
This was not the same proposal at all. And the fact was that she was trying to risk his career, house and family’s income for her own interest: she started trying to convince him when her lover was planning to fire him for his convenience, enlisting the help of an accused murderer (here I will note in passing that neither of those actions by her lover were a deal breaker to her, but lying about camping was a step too far… had he been *just* someone willing to hurt her husband she would have still been with him… don’t know if I am the only one finding this disturbing).
@matrice
I agree with everything you said, except one minor thing:
neither of those actions by her lover were a deal breaker to her, but lying about camping was a step too far…
It wasn’t just lying about camping.
The wife heard her lover’s recording. He said he was having an affair with her, because, as a married woman, she’d be discreet. And that he wasn’t ending their affair only because she was still in love with him, and she could cause some trouble.
She drove to the camp site to confront him, but he wasn’t even there.
I am not sure of that, meaning that I got the feeling, watching the show, that she was still weighting Ji An’s words (maybe she though she had caught him in a trap with the recording… let’s remember that when she discovered him trying to get her husband fired she bough his “he will try to get revenge” line hook, line and sinker, apparently not knowing her husband at all -given he just asked him to break up and not mess with him on the job unfairly, and in regards to her, he was even concerned about her wellbeing when confronting her lover, taking him to task for him not wanting to marry her due to her family background-), and that things might have been different had the discovered he didn’t lie about going camping like Ji An claimed.
In any case, we are talking about a distinction without a difference (plus, I wanted to make the phrase more snappy, and adding “badmouthing her too” seemed unnecessary: the point was that he slighted her by being insincere, either by talking behind her back or lying about camping), we could amend the phrase to:
him mistreating and trying to fire her husband with the help of an accused murderer was not a deal breaker, him badmouthing her behind her back and lying about camping was
Bit more of a mouthful, but the point about her priorities stands. As does the fact that this was all happenstance, and the whole situation was kind of “created” by Ji An and Dong Hoon’s interference (mind you, I agree with Dong Hoon that he wouldn’t have married her, so sooner or later she was bound to find out that he prioritized his immediate career goal/prospects -not wanting a wife with a poor family background-).
she had caught him in a trap with the recording
How? What kind of a trap can excuse what he said and the tone of his voice, when he was saying it.
him badmouthing her behind her back and lying about camping was
It wasn’t just badmouthing or lying. He did not love her. That’s what set her off.
It turned out that she traded her husband (who was a decent man and a father of her child, but who supposedly didn’t love her enough) for someone, who didn’t love her at all. And who was a piece of s***.
Regarding the last line, again, with regards to him being an unsavory character, we are talking about someone that had an affair with the wife of a subordinate he mistreated, and wanted to fire said subordinate for his convenience (when he said himself that as a CEO he could have easily found another job -and was certainly more socially mobile than Dong Hoon-… not that it mattered, since he was his enemy and was sleeping with his wife, so his wellbeing was not really one of his priorities).
And the “trading with” was exactly my point as an evaluation of her priorities. The guy was threatening to fire her husband, a man she had known for years, the father of her child, with the help of an accused murderer. And that was not a deal breaker. Him badmouthing/lying to her was not. She would have been happy with the trade had he merely hurt her husband, but not badmouthed her behind her back/lied to her about camping and obviously, by extension, shown what he would have otherwise shown later by not marrying her.
I actually wouldn’t be so sure about his feelings -he did seem hurt when she talked him in his apartment-, but I certainly agree that he did not love her enough to marry her, or to prioritize her versus her job. But yes, probably he didn’t love her at all (though he never admitted not to to her face).
I cannot make a definite statement about whether she would have dropped him on Ji An’s recording alone, since it was not made explicit or spelled out, so this is only my interpretation (we are in any case arguing about a moot point, because my general point was about him being a fake -either by lying or badmouthing her behind her back-).
But my general idea is this: she went there to check whether he was present or not, whether Ji An had told her the truth or not. If she had found him there, that would have been one thing that Ji An had said that didn’t check out, and she could have bought a lie about him trying to do damage control and not wanting to expose a weakness for Ji An to exploit.
Let’s remember that she bought his argument about her husband wanting revenge, when the guy only asked her lover to break things off and not treat him unfairly at work, and as for her, he still cared about her so much that even when one would have supposed he shouldn’t have cared about her at all or even hated her, he still cared about her wellbeing enough to take her lover to task about not wanting to marry her (plus the kindness to her snapping at him/nursing her back to health after the breakup we see in her flashback).
Of course, eventually she would have found out, him not marrying him at some point in the future would have been kind of a big hint to ignore.
since it was not made explicit or spelled out
There are very few things in this show that are spelled out. It leaves a lot for interpretation and imagination, and that’s what makes it great.
But I disagree with your interpretation of the break up situation.
The wife didn’t go there to check if JA told the truth. JA didn’t say anything. She just played the recording.
The wife went there to confront the CEO. Him being there wouldn’t have changed the outcome.
Funny enough, the CEO himself thought that it was his lie that set her off. He had no idea that JA recorded their conversation and the wife heard the recoding.
I agree with you about other things. The wife’s behavior was terrible, inexcusable. And if the CEO loved her, she might have gone along with his scheming.
Okay, then maybe I took the CEO’s position as the truth… I thought Ji An had told her to check out the campsite when she confronted her, blocking her care -are you sure she didn’t? I won’t go back to check, since this is really a meaningless distinction, an example of the same point (him being duplicitous and not who she though he was)-, so it really does’t change the basic point I was trying to get at, namely the disproportion in the severity of what triggered her reaction:
The last point seems like an indication of “scumminess” much more remarkable, even if he did it to someone she was not related with… in this case the target was her husband and the father of her child, which made things worse, but frankly even learning of his conspiracy to get rid of other opponents she was unrelated to with such criminal cartel-like methods (like the manager that ended up taking the bribe by mistake) would have give me pause.
Up until that point, for example in the first encounter, he gave off the impression of “regular CEO trying to improve his career by doing a good job”, then we discover that he was really slime that threatened others/set others up to get his way, with mafia-like methods. I mean, she was a lawyer to boot, not to put too fine a point on it.
In any case, I don’t want to give the impression I thought this was the wrong characterization, it was perfectly compatible with her being willing to cheat on her husband for a year (with his worst enemy to boot). It’s something I found it hard to relate to on a personal level (I couldn’t imagine myself doing anything remotely similar to what she did), but it was fitting, though it made it difficult to be convinced of her “very last minute turnabout” (after she discovered he know, which was basically the very last chance -had she not felt any guilt even then, she would have never felt it full stop-).
In any case, she might have gone there to confront him (or to check whether he was lying to her), but in certainly solidified in her mind the idea that Ji An’s words were true (after seeing how she bought his line of reasoning with regards to her husband seeking revenge, I wouldn’t put him being able to spin it around past them, had he actually been there at the camp, but it’s really a moot point).
Actually, in terms of the plot line, he really only needed to not deceive her (by badmouthing her behind her back or lying about camping). It was not necessary for him to love her, he just had to be exposed a bit later (obviously, when he didn’t marry her, the truth would have necessarily dawned on her).
I mean, there is no “might have” unfortunately, that’s what we factually see her do in the show: her standing by his side as he did this, while orchestrating her own manipulation, playing with her husband’s emotions and supposed insecurities, to make herself feel better by making him quit and make it appear as if it was his own decision, rather than something she manipulated him into for her own convenience… unfortunately for her, he suspected/knew of the affair and in any case could see the absurdity of the proposition… even more so after I realized how actually poor he was, by seeing his bank account in the first episode, and that had to financially support the rest of his family. The deal breaker here was the situation Ji An/Dong Hoon orchestrated (by exposing him to her and making him break up with her and thus lie about camping), which made him display something he might have otherwise only exposed the moment he didn’t marry her.
Let’s remember that until she learned he knew, even in the interim period between her breakup and her discovering he knew the truth, she felt ashamed of her choice of lover, not of having betrayed her husband in and of itself (consider their lover’s nest scene versus the rooftop scene, in the former she says she is ashamed to have loved him, in the latter that she is ashamed to have loved him, and to have betrayed Dong Hoon -I didn’t like how that came second and more softly, because it felt kind of like an afterthought, while it should have been the central and only point, but I think that narratively it works… it’s her working through the fact that yes, she choose a scummy lover… but that even if she had chosen someone that was better -defined as not deceiving her, not necessarily as not hurting her husband-, it would have still been something to be guilty over).
Okay, I went back to check the scene… in effect Ji An does not seem to have told her, she received his text message, then went to the campsite after hearing Ji An’s recording. The thing that probably planted the impression in my mind that she was still hesitant about whether to believe Ji An was the fact that the dialogue of his words is repeated over the scene of her looking at the campsite. It’s at the campsite that she breaks down crying, so I guess the idea/feeling I got was that she was hurt, but still kind of gave him the benefit of the doubt/hoped he had an alternative explanation, but when she found the empty campsite it dawned on her that it was true, and she passed from angry face to crying. More or less what I thought, with the mistaken detail of Ji An telling her .
Something along the lines of:
“She discovered our affair, I had to run damage control and pretend this was nothing, in order to not expose a weakness she could exploit. I had to show her I was in control, but I was only acting, etc.”
Probably something much more articulate along those general lines. It does not have to make sense/fit their characters, for example his argument about Dong Hoon seeking revenge as an explanation for him wanting to fire him:
Not saying that she would have bought the explanation, but he could have given it a college try (he kind of did try to make it seem like he loved her, but he was also in the process of breaking up the relationship as it interfered with his career).
Actually, I am not sure we can definitely say he did not have any feelings for her. Probably not, but the show is admittedly ambiguous with his expressions… the way her words in their private apartment seemed to hurt him (but maybe it’s because they hit the nail on the head), the way they threw around different perspectives, without taking a stance on what is the truth. The facts certainly tell us that it was not a feeling strong enough to stop him from throwing her away as soon as it became convenient for his career, and I am positive that he would have never married her. But I agree, I am basically positive he did not love her.
@matrice
This is a response to a few comments:
She discovered our affair, I had to run damage control
You do damage control by denying an affair. You don’t do it by admitting to it, and then explaining that you are having this affair, because you count on your partner to keep her mouth shut (since she is a married woman).
After DH hit him at work, the CEO denied having an affair during the subsequent meeting. That was damage control.
the way her words in their private apartment seemed to hurt him (but maybe it’s because they hit the nail on the head),
Nail on the head, for sure. That’s why he also got mad at JA during the police interview. Because she saw right through him.
Logically speaking, he could have just as well resigned himself…
he would have never had done this because he was Dong Hoon’s enemy who was sleeping with his wife, and firing him was exactly the point.
That wasn’t “exactly” the point. He couldn’t quit. He had a bigger fish to fry. The chairman was childless and ill. The CEO wanted to take over the company. That’s where all these firings, scheming, etc. were coming from.
I’m leaving alone events that led to the breakup. We are going in circles. So I’m done.
Yes, I said that it was an excuse, and that it didn’t have to make sense (but the argument he made about Dong Hoon similarly didn’t pan out, so it was not necessary in order to convince her). But maybe Ji An had/he thought he had some evidence of the affair, so he couldn’t deny it? Well, I am not too attached to this specific explanation, I am not a writer so it’s the best I could come up with, but maybe he could have found some other excuse. Maybe believable, maybe not.
Yes, my point was that he would have had, by his own admission, other options (but of course, he didn’t want to remain in his position, but to climb up).
It was just something speculative, I am not saying that he would have convinced her, I am saying that given the precedent of the husband, I am not sure that, had he found him at the camp, he would have been done for (she was angry, but when she found the empty tent she was devastated).
But it’s a moot point, either way, a distinction without a difference. Simply means she just needed one slight, not two.
You were right, of course, about Ji An not telling her about the camping thing, but her lover doing it and her going ther herself. Apologies.
I think Do Joon Young probably did have some feelings for Yoon Hee, especially dating back to college, where the show has hinted that both Dong Hoon and DJY liked the same person in their college club. However, he will always come first in his heart 🙂 .
@the_sweetroad
You are probably right about the past. I’m not so sure about the present.
DJY lost then. I think, in his sick mind, he sees this situation as a some kind of rematch, where he is the winner. And Yoon He became collateral damage.
Also, when we look at YH, we see a modern, educated woman, a lawyer. We expect her to be rational, a bit cynical and even merciless (due to her profession). But that’s not who she is. Or, maybe, what/who she’s become.
Well, she’s been merciless towards her husband. But other than that, what does that fantasy of hers (having a husband who sees only her, and pays attention only to her, etc.) make her?
Needy, insecure, unkind, unable to properly assess people and situations…
Not a pretty picture. I can’t help but wonder, if their unhappy marriage and DH’s “emotional freeze” somehow did it to her?
Yeah, I can see this, @MariaF.
DJY lost then. I think, in his sick mind, he sees this situation as a some kind of rematch, where he is the winner. And Yoon He became collateral damage.
From their college days, I think popular, handsome, and smart DH has always stuck in DJY’s craw. DJY mentioned he always had wanted to be DH’s friend. And even now he was always going on and on about “Why are all the women around DH like this?”
So for him to have an affair with Yoon Hee was a personal triumph against DJY. I agree.
Needy, insecure, unkind, unable to properly assess people and situations…
Yup. DJY and YH wouldn’t have had a great future themselves if they had succeeded in destroying DH as they planned.
I can’t help but wonder, if their unhappy marriage and DH’s “emotional freeze” somehow did it to her?
I think it definitely contributed to her insecurities. She also wanted more control over their life situation (moving out of the neighborhood, finding other friends). There are a few instances in the show where DH and YH each open the window in their apartment. They both feel totally trapped in their marriage. Someone else brought up the point that they’re always shutting doors on each other in the apartment. Neither of them feels safe and open with the other.
There are a few instances in the show where DH and YH each open the window in their apartment. They both feel totally trapped in their marriage.
Excellent observation about the windows. It’s very symbolic.
Neither of them feels safe and open with the other.
So true. I even think that, in some terrible, twisted way, her affair was the best thing that could’ve happened to them in their marriage situation.
Otherwise, they would’ve stayed in that marriage for a long time, being miserable, quietly resenting, and eventually even hating, each other. Unhappy and resentful.
DH will be ok now. He was lucky to meet JA.
What’s going to happen to YH is still unclear. She told DJY in the hotel scene, that since he was less nervous, when he was with her, she thought she was someone special.
I guess, she needs to be less desperate and get back her self confidence, or something. ‘Being less nervous’ shouldn’t be good enough.
I realize that we all want/need to be loved. But to get involved with someone, who she apparently knew wasn’t good, just to get that validation, is just wrong…
Anyway, she is obviously not in DH’s life as a wife and a romantic partner any more, so all is well now. We also should be able to let her go.😊
I even think that, in some terrible, twisted way, her affair was the best thing that could’ve happened to them in their marriage situation.
I tend to agree. It made both of them face up to the truth of the sorry state of their marriage. I guess Yoon Hee had already faced up to it/ given up and was seeking relief elsewhere.
What’s going to happen to YH is still unclear.
In my mind, she meets someone in the US who can cherish her and be romantic, but who can also have good arguments with her and tell her when her expectations are unrealistic. 🙂 Maybe she’ll meet an American-born Korean who’s used to being more assertive and direct!
By the way, did you know I wrote a fanfic on them? I finished it in Feb, shortly after this group watch ended. Let me know if you’re interested in reading it and I’ll post the link. (Fanfics are not for everyone, and mine is pretty long 🙂 )
I should clarify – the fanfic is a continuation of the story between Dong Hoon and Ji An; it’s not about Dong Hoon and Yoon Hee.
I hope so. I’m not interested in DH and YH story at all.
Ha!! I was definitely not interested in writing about DH and YH at all.
who can cherish her and be romantic, but who can also have good arguments with her and tell her when her expectations are unrealistic.
Thats exactly what she needs!
I would love to read your fanfic.
Here’s the story, called The Road Back to You: https://archiveofourown.org/works/34061467/chapters/84728752
Easier to read on the phone than on the computer. 🙂
@the_sweetroad
Thank you!
I would also have appreciated more clarity about their status at the end (we see a ton of photos, but only of her and the kid, without him in the picture… not sure what to make of it,
The first time I watched the show, I wondered as well. Especially because the Netflix subtitles have Dong Hoon still calling Yoon Hee his “wife” in the final scene. Those subtitles were wrong, though – he actually calls her “ae omma” which is “my kid’s mom”, which is an important contrast from before. Previously, he had mostly called her “chib saram” (wife).
Now when I re-watch the show, I see foreshadowing in multiple scenes of a divorce between Yoon Hee and Dong Hoon. Some of these clues are written about and scattered below on this thread, and the other MM spoiler threads. BUT if you’re interested, I compiled a long list of clues, breadcrumbs, and foreshadowing here: https://forums.soompi.com/topic/408082-drama-2018-my-mister-%EB%82%98%EC%9D%98-%EC%95%84%EC%A0%80%EC%94%A8-best-drama-at-2019-55th-baeksang-arts-awards/?do=findComment&comment=22299210
After re-watching the show a bunch of times, I’m more confident now that Yoon Hee and Dong Hoon are divorced after the time skip. Of course, this is just my interpretation of all of these foreshadowing scenes :), but there are a LOT of conversations and clues that she show did not have to put in, but did. And this PDnim is known for being very purposeful with his scenes; he doesn’t put in filler stuff.
@MariaF I replied to a different post to make my reply less indented and yet be closest to the post I’m replying to. Not sure if it will land where I expected it to be though. 😅
I’ve never studied literature nor film so my knowledge on chekhov’s gun and easter eggs are just based on google. In fact, I first encountered the term from you (thank you!) and MM was the first show where I tried to understand both concepts.
Succinctly, details that draw attention in the story should contribute to the narrative. And for me, “drawing attention” in films is often times the work of the camera/editing. Like the scenes where the camera is panning and focusing on the desk photos were apparently to draw attention to them. And the eventual payback is the different set of photos we got to see at the end.
Two other scenes do come to mind but I’m not sure if they can be considered under Chekhov’s gun. One is DH’s “pretty” remark, which obviously drew attention. But it could be said the payback was immediate – of JA running to him to the restaurant. And that for me set the tone on the trajectory of their relationship.
Another is the scene at the columbarium when DH was helping JA place the urn inside the cabinet. The camera specifically focused on their hands, with JA’s hands accidentally slipping a bit to touch DH’s. The fact that the camera zoomed in on the shot obviously meant that touch was not random. But what could be its significance?
With ideas laid down by @the_sweetroad in GMS, I wrote somewhere that scene was part of a 3-part act in ep 16: the first was JA staring at DH’s hand while he was on the wheel at the start of ep 16. The second was this finger-touching moment. The third was the handshake at the end of the ep. We see the progression in this 3-part act, symbolized through the use of their hands, and what’s next could just be extrapolated from that progression.
There are quite a few easter eggs in MM, but the most recognizable for me was Yura’s movie that KH watched at the tail end of ep 16. That scene established the fact that Yura made it big in the movie industry, and that was part of the narrative. That Yura’s character in that movie was actually a metaphor for JA, that’s the easter egg. That one was not part of the narrative but an “add-on,” which for me in this case, provided a window into the creator’s mind.
Thanks @actionscript for this breakdown!
Hope you and @MariaF are doing well this week. I’m getting absolutely slammed in real life (nothing bad, just loads of craziness – loong story) but I hope to jump back in soon!
@actionscript
In a letter to a friend, Chekhov wrote:
“One must never place a loaded rifle on the stage if it isn’t going to go off. It’s wrong to make promises you don’t mean to keep.”
If MM ended with a wedding or a confession, DH’s “pretty” remark would be considered a Chekhov’s gun: in the middle of the show DH thought that JA was pretty (when nobody else, even herself, did.)
And then there is a wedding/confession at the end of the show.
Of course, there was no wedding, but the show’s ending is open to interpretation, and the “pretty” remark can influence that interpretation.
I don’t consider the big family portrait a Chekhov’s gun.
My understanding is that Chekhov’s gun must have some predictive value, but that portrait is all about the past: DH and his wife were a happy family years ago.
On the other hand, if the pictures from the beginning of the show didn’t have DH and his wife together (like in the end), then yes, I would’ve considered them a Chekhov’s gun, a hint that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark”.
I don’t agree that JA staring at DH’s hand while he was driving at start of ep 16 is related to DH/JA’s future relationship and can be linked to the other two “hand scenes”.
I think it’s about DH going through changes. He is becoming more relaxed, more confident, more at peace with himself. JA told DH that he seemed like a new, different person. I think that was the main message of the scene.
The handshake at the end of show is definitely a Chekhov’s gun. The scene where JA’s hands accidentally slip a bit to touch DH’s could be significant. Or not. I’m not sure.
Which brings me back to the point I tried to make before: the gun principle shouldn’t be overused, because it can make the show too predictable, even boring. And it is not a good thing.
I wouldn’t want to watch a show, where everything can be anticipated and explained with certainty.
Life is not like that. And MM is definitely not like that. At least, I hope it’s not.
And it’s not fair to the creators of the show to reduce MM to a mathematical equation, with one “right” answer, where characters of the show are not even “variables”. They are constants and vectors.
On the other hand, I love looking for and finding what you call “easter eggs”, while watching MM.
It might sound strange, but I still sometimes change my interpretation of certain scenes, even the ones that we’ve discussed and “settled” earlier.
It’s as if the show lives and evolves in my head and in my heart. I suspect that I’m not the only one. And I think it’s the best thing that could happen to a piece of art.
Thank you for the additional examples and further clarifications on Chekhov’s gun. I’m learning a lot!
You’re right, the pictures didn’t have predictive value. It was some sort of a motif, with the different set of pictures in the end serving as contrast.
The show used the hands and footsteps in many occasions as motifs as well, understandably to enhance the emotions in the scenes given the stoic nature of the leads.
And yes, you’re not alone in having evolving understanding and interpretation of the scenes and the show. I myself am going through the same. In one of my previous iterations/interpretations, I toyed with the idea that the “pretty” remark was a Chekhov’s gun, with the missing confession you cited as being implied. But now I’m seeing a parallel I’ve talked about in the psychological thriller The Game (Michael Douglas). A female character who is part of the “bad guys” remarked to the male lead that he is attractive. There are no romantic overtures throughout the movie except in the last scene when she asked the male lead out for coffee. That ending scene would have felt out-of-place if not for that “attractive” remark inserted in the middle of the movie. I’m now seeing the parallel in that any romantic interpretations in the restraint (and other actions) that DH was showing in the 2nd half of the show would have felt totally off as well without that “pretty” remark. So it served to lay down the context for what’s to come.
It was some sort of a motif, with the different set of pictures in the end serving as contrast.
They were like “before” and “after” pictures.
I haven’t seen The Game. Maybe someday…
@actionscript
I just read your comment on soompi regarding the scene at the end of episode 10. Here is my take on it:
1. That confession was absolutely real.
2. Yes, DH didn’t know at the time, that JA was aware of his wife’s affair. But I’m sure he realized that JA was aware of the fact that he was not “happily“ anything, his marriage included. He told JA in the bar that he was afraid that she knew everything about him, even if he didn’t say anything. So he knew that she could see right through him. It wasn’t a secret that he was miserable.
3. Even if DH thought that JA were confessing to a happily married man, there is no excuse for his behavior. None. Especially since that’s not why he hit her. Beez, the_sweetroad and I already discussed that scene, and I stand by my words that DH hit JA, because he was frustrated. Because he was fighting his own demons: his growing feelings for her.
Oh yes, I’m 100% with you in seeing that confession as real. But I’ve seen others differ in their opinions, and my quotations in “confessed” was to accommodate or acknowledge that others see it differently.
And yes, I also agree with you there is no excuse for DH’s hit. The context of my post was to illustrate scenes where the characters have dissimilar information which could be overlooked by viewers. I admit it’s not a good example, as the difference in info between DH and JA may not have been relevant in that scene.
And more about that scene, battling his own demons would explain 98% of DH’s reaction. But as things are often multi-causal and multi-everything, somewhere in that 2% is the fact that DH is seeing JA confess (or more like shout) to a married man in public, which in most instances could still be considered scandalous. Again, this is not to justify the hit, but just to pry into DH’s mind.
Hello @MariaF and @actionscript! 🙂
I’ve been re-watching MM from Ep 9 and just finished Ep 15 today. I’ll try to watch Ep 16 in quiet moments in upcoming days. This is my usual cycle, watching Eps 9 – 16 :). Have to say it’s been thoroughly enjoyable, especially in the midst of real life being bonkers.
And more about that scene, battling his own demons would explain 98% of DH’s reaction. But as things are often multi-causal and multi-everything, somewhere in that 2% is the fact that DH is seeing JA confess (or more like shout) to a married man in public, which in most instances could still be considered scandalous.
To up the ante a bit more and give yet another angle, it is really interesting that after the confession in Ep 10, we have the other Managing Directors prepping DH for his interview early in Ep 11. First they lay into him for a perceived entangled relationship with JA (“How far did you go with her? Even if you slept with her we’ll deny it.”)
Towards the end, they almost-blithely say, “We need to move on to his family issues,” and “His family his fine. He has a happy marriage, and his sister-in-law takes care of their kid in the States.”
His family warrants no scrutiny, unlike his relationship with JA, and it feels like the Directors are almost dismissive. (But the camera angles are very interesting in this scene, as we can tell DH is reacting to this rosy summary of his home life.)
I think of DH trying to juggle these two realities – one, that JA can see through him and can tell he’s miserable, as you said, @MariaF. And two, that to the world that doesn’t know him as well, he has a “fine” and happy marriage.
Yoon Hee thought DH might not want to break up the marriage because of his mom and Ji Seok, but I imagine DH felt pressure to maintain the image of a happy marriage for the sake of his promotion.
DH felt pressure to maintain the image of a happy marriage for the sake of his promotion.
True. DH definitely thought of that. The promotion was very important for him.
But it was a temporary consideration. In the long run, it was about DH’s family. Coworkers too (unrelated to the promotion).
@the_sweetroad
I think here is a good explanation re divergent type (soompi question).
Take a look at the picture below.
Based on what you see, would you say the man is happy or sad?
If you believe the man is probably happy because he’s smiling, that’s an example of convergent thinking.
You looked at whatever information was available and came up with one logical, straightforward solution.
If you looked at this picture and thought, ‘It depends,’ that’s an example of divergent thinking.
The man could be happy, or he could be smiling because people expect you to smile when taking a picture.
The man is wearing professional clothing, so he might be projecting a positive attitude because he’s taking a business photo.
In reality, there’s not enough information to know whether the man is happy.
A divergent thinker is more likely to acknowledge the possibility that there are multiple answers or none at all.
The man is wearing professional clothing, so he might be projecting a positive attitude because he’s taking a business photo.
This is exactly what I thought. 😄
In reality, there’s not enough information to know whether the man is happy.
Yes, if the question is “Is he happy?” there’s not enough information, based on just one photo, to make that call.
What did you think of PHY herself saying that DH was a convergent type? That puzzled me. I know he’s a logical man, but I thought one of his strengths in the story was his ability to think in nuanced ways. For example, going for JA’s more empty resume, and asking Choon Dae for more information about JA rather than just taking the loan shark at his word. He allowed for the humanity of people (“Do machines work in companies? Humans do!”) rather than settling for easy, expedient conclusions.
The academic paper on MM (that I finally read!) went so far as to say DH had an “independent, uncompromising way of thinking.” So I thought PHY characterizing DH as a convergent type seemed the opposite of that. Unless I’m missing something?
@the_sweetroad
What did you think of PHY herself saying that DH was a convergent type? That puzzled me. I know he’s a logical man, but I thought one of his strengths in the story was his ability to think in nuanced ways.
Sorry for not replying right away, but answering your question required thinking.
Well, nobody is 100% of anything, including DH. But I agree with PHY that DH is predominately a convergent type.
I now think that the example I included in my previous post might have been a bit simplistic.
I found another article that offers a better explanation, imho.
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/thinking-divergently
It says, among other things, that “ Divergent thinkers are often independent, curious and risk-takers.” If the writer of this article is correct, then DH is not it.
DH told JA that he chose her resume, because he might have subconsciously agreed with his friend monk, who said that certain skill sets or possessions don’t define a person.
So, yes, he allowed for a possibility of a different way of life.
Yet, for himself he chose a very traditional, responsible life. He chose conformity: staying married, working at a big company, being a part of a community.
He thought he found the “right” decision/answer, so he stuck with it. Never mind that his marriage and his job made him miserable.
I think his working style was also convergent. He was very organized and very focused on finding the right solution. And he chose the right profession for that.
Even the chairman mentioned once in relation to DH that all engineers are like that.
JA was a real godsend for DH. Her presence gave DH courage to try less structured life, including business ownership and no marriage. But those changes didn’t come from within. DH needed JA for that.
The academic paper on MM (that I finally read!) went so far as to say DH had an “independent, uncompromising way of thinking.”
I think having “uncompromising way of thinking” doesn’t necessarily mean being divergent. I would say it’s kind of opposite.
On the other hand, being convergent doesn’t mean being cruel or foolish.
That’s why DH “investigated” loan shark’s claim. And that’s why he accepted the fact that people didn’t need to be perfect to work at the company.
Besides, when it comes to JA, DH acted out of character.
His head and his heart fought, and the heart always won the battle. It just refused to accept/ believe in bad things. Every time DH had a choice between being separated from JA (for whatever reason) or staying close to her, his choice was always staying close to JA.
I’d like to make another observation.
Yoon Sang-tae was a perfect example of how dangerous it is to have a fool for an ally.
And he was definitely a convergent type. If he wasn’t so focused on making DH miserable on a daily basis and let him fire JA, it would’ve been much easier to achieve the DJY’s goal!
Also, I’d m sure YST was married. Imagine having someone like him for a husband!
@the_sweetroad
To add: translation of what the writer said seems pretty accurate to me.
I think DH’s convergent personality could partially explain his inflexibility and even his tendency to avoid conflicts (they could have unpredictable outcomes, which could require more than one solution, which would put DH out of his comfort zone).
So true about his conflict avoidance. Thanks for bringing all these other aspects to light, other than just his interactions with JA, which is where I started.
@the_sweetroad
Another example is DH’s marriage. DH knew that he had a troubled marriage even before he found out about the affair.
He told his wife during the confession conversation that he tried to be a good husband by cleaning and turning down tv sound.
Marriage troubles can have so many reasons. DH focused on pretty much just one solution – household activities. He either didn’t realize he needed to explore other reasons or didn’t want to.
Hi @MariaF, sorry for the delay; I finally have time to re-engage here. This was another helpful example – thank you. Cleaning and turning down the TV ended up being a woefully inadequate solution in this case, didn’t it?
It made me think of Yoon Hee and her solutions for their marriage, too – moving out of Hugye, and, failing that, having an affair. In the past she was willing to talk about things and have the conflict (she probably would have been up for some creative, divergent-thinking brainstorming sessions!), but as you wrote earlier, DH avoided conflict – and disengaged when she needed his input the most.
Yet, for himself he chose a very traditional, responsible life. He chose conformity: staying married, working at a big company, being a part of a community.
He thought he found the “right” decision/answer, so he stuck with it. Never mind that his marriage and his job made him miserable.
I think his working style was also convergent. He was very organized and very focused on finding the right solution. And he chose the right profession for that.
Even the chairman mentioned once in relation to DH that all engineers are like that.
Great examples! I can see how DH is a convergent type now. And I agree – he tried to do the “right”, expected things even though they made him miserable.
The monk chose to get out of the system completely. And even JA didn’t conform to the system – she couldn’t – so she brought a different perspective to how he’d been living life.
I’m glad in the end he chose to stick to his profession, because his thinking and personality were the right fits for engineering, and he was good at it. I’d want an engineer or doctor to be organized, precise with their calculations, and not constantly experimental risk-takers in their approach to work.
His head and his heart fought, and the heart always won the battle. It just refused to accept/ believe in bad things. Every time DH had a choice between being separated from JA (for whatever reason) or staying close to her, his choice was always staying close to JA.
I seriously love it when you write stuff like this. ❤️
Also, I’d m sure YST was married. Imagine having someone like him for a husband!
LOL. Sounds terrible!
I agree. JA’s behavior was scandalous on so many levels! DH was twice her age. He also was her boss and a married man.
Still, I think that, scandalous or not, DH wouldn’t have hit a young girl. Under normal circumstances. He hit JA, because he was mad at himself.
I mentioned before, that it wasn’t a coincidence, that in the beginning of the show JA asked DH, if he ever had hit a woman.
Chekhov’s gun😊
I could be wrong though…
Thanks for pointing out this instance of Chekhov’s gun. I’m still fuzzy on how to tell what’s what 🙂 .
HI @Matrice and welcome to the thread! 🙂 Did you just finish the show?
Great points, especially about Yoon Hee’s suggestion and how much Dong Hoon would have risked if he had left Saman to start his own company when and how she suggested. Someone else has said that Yoon Hee basically didn’t care if Dong Hoon were left jobless, divorced, and in major debt if a new business failed. In short, she didn’t care if DH ended up like his older brother Sang Hoon.
As MariaF said, one major realization for YH was when she heard Ji An’s recordings. In my mind it’s here that she realizes Do Joon Young never really loved her. Do Joon Young later said he had risked a lot to love her, but she realized he had never “endured any dangers” to be in a relationship with her.
Great insight about YH being willing to tolerate a DJY willing to hurt her husband…but when she saw DJY had been a slimeball to her, too, she was done with him.
An aside: Now I’m trying to think if DJY had showed loyalty/ true friendship to anyone in the show? Even with the Chairman, DJY kissed up to him but also seemed a bit scornful of him at the campsite, when he told YH about the Chairman’s “country bumpkin roots.”
Regarding Ji An, I think that she finally realized how good she was to her husband, and it kind of humbled her given the way she treated him.
Yes! Thankfully YH realizes at the end what her own behavior to DH has been. Of course, DH’s lack of presence and investment in their marriage hasn’t been great, either 🙁 .
@the_sweetroad
Now I’m trying to think if DJY had showed loyalty/ true friendship to anyone in the show?
That’s a very good question. I didn’t think he had.
But I wondered what’d happened to his marriage. It lasted less than a year. Based on what I’ve seen in Korean shows, rich people often order their subordinates to spy on their relatives, to photograph them. Maybe DJY was caught doing something inappropriate?
I thought it was a bit strange that, while YH badmouthed DH, DJY didn’t say anything bad about his marriage.
In one of the hotel scenes YH offered to listen to DJY’s complains about his ex wife. DJY refused. He said there was nothing to say, because the marriage was too short.
But was it the real reason though?
On the other hand, when he mocked JA for liking DH, she asked him ‘Do you even know how it feels to like someone?’
I guess she struck a nerve with that question, because DJY left screaming that he wants to sue JA for libel and god know what else.
Great points, @MariaF. He was pretty cagey when Yoon Hee offered for him to talk about his ex.
Based on what I’ve seen in Korean shows, rich people often order their subordinates to spy on their relatives, to photograph them. Maybe DJY was caught doing something inappropriate?
Interesting! Especially since he was married into a chaebol’s family, and they probably wouldn’t have tolerated any impropriety or sliminess from him. And we all know he has a habit of being slimy and using his underlings to do his dirty work. Dong Hoon said that DJY was already like that back in college, so he probably kept on in that vein even when married.
I even wonder how in the world did he make it to be CEO at Saman? He must have brought enough people to his side. It seems like the Chairman didn’t necessarily have a say in the CEO selection (since the Board voted on it) but I always thought Chairman Jang could see that DJY was full of it. But perhaps the Chairman trusted his processes enough to put people into positions *and* remove them if need be.
On the other hand, when he mocked JA for liking DH, she asked him ‘Do you even know how it feels to like someone?’
I guess she struck a nerve with that question, because DJY left screaming that he wants to sue JA for libel and god know what else.
Yeah, I always thought that was an odd thing for him to be angry about and threaten to sue her for libel for. It’s not like she was accusing him of committing fraud or embezzlement. She was just saying that he didn’t know what it mean to really like someone!
DJY is fascinating :).
I even wonder how in the world did he make it to be CEO at Saman?
Maybe he became a CEO while being married, and his rich in-laws recommended him?
Yeah, I always thought that was an odd thing for him to be angry about and threaten to sue her for libel for
It’s because JA struck a nerve with that question. We know she is very smart. She understood DH very quickly (that he is sick of life, etc.)
And now CEO realized that she can read him like an open book.
He didn’t know how to love, so all his relationships ended badly. And when these relationships ended, his women weren’t sad or heartbroken. They felt ashamed that they had been with him. Like DH’s wife.
So, he probably always felt inferior and envious, when it came to love, loyalty, devotion. And JA said it out loud. No wonder he got mad at her.
DJY is fascinating :).
He is an SOB.
Well, he did get an MBA, so I think he was qualified for the position in terms of degree, and I think they mentioned him having some connections. Maybe the wife?
As I said in my comment, most likely his former in-laws recommended him. They were supposedly rich and powerful. His wife was probably too young at the time to be that influential.
Though, if his in laws helped, and he did something slimy that led to a divorce, it’s not clear to me why they also didn’t mess with him and make him lose the position… if they can make him, they can unmake him.
True about the MBA, thanks for the reminder! Dong Hoon was the one who said, “Well, he did get an MBA, I knew he might be promoted before me.” DH didn’t have as much of a problem with that, as much as with DJY’s slimy character, which he knew well from their 20-year history.
Yes. It wasn’t about his lack of qualifications. Like DH said to JA: “You don’t get fired for incompetence. You get fired when someone doesn’t like you”.
It was a power struggle for the control of the company, who will get it after the chairman is gone. Money!
Yup. And as much as the Chairman tried to have the executives cool it with the politics, they didn’t always behave.
He didn’t know how to love, so all his relationships ended badly. And when these relationships ended, his women weren’t sad or heartbroken. They felt ashamed that they had been with him. Like DH’s wife.
So, he probably always felt inferior and envious, when it came to love, loyalty, devotion. And JA said it out loud. No wonder he got mad at her.
This is helpful for me in interpreting that police station scene. Thanks.
He is an SOB.
Absolutely. And the show lets him wallow in it and suffer the consequences. He’s one of the only main characters without a redemption arc.
@the_sweetroad
I just realized how similar DJY and DH’s reactions were, when JA told them something they probably didn’t want to admit even to themselves.
DJY got mad at the police station.
DH went even further and smacked JA, when she suggested that he liked her. And he never apologized to JA for hitting her.
Wow! @MariaF – Do you recall which episode that was? I’d like to rewatch that. I don’t remember that at all!
@beez
Wow. Guest of honor😊
It happened at the end of episode 10.
I’m going to watch that tonight or tomorrow! I’m shocked that didn’t cause a crowd reaction of hate toward DH but everybody seems ok with him. (I’m saying that without having really looked at the threads though). (And knowing Jian, she probably deserved a slap into reality).
@beez
And knowing Jian, she probably deserved a slap into reality
That’s what we missed during our group watch – bitter spices. Because, despite differences in opinions, we all (almost all) loved JA and DH.
I commented on DH’s behavior in today’s comment- I’m not a fan of it in this instance.
Well I’ll give you my nutshell on Jian. I come from a place where every woman is Jian. Each has a legitimate sob story(ies). I feel that people often don’t look at them as a group and give them the sympathy shown by audiences to Jian. Why? Because she’s cute? Because she’s played by I.U.?
I also know that in real life, I don’t tolerate sob stories as an excuse for bad behavior in all these people that I know. So while I rooted for Jian to overcome her circumstances, I didn’t like her very much. I sympathized with her, but I didn’t like her.
@beez
I feel that people often don’t look at them as a group and give them the sympathy shown by audiences to Jian. Why? Because she’s cute? Because she’s played by I.U.?
Maybe because she is a character in a tv show? You know it’s easier to sympathize with someone who you see on tv, rather then deal with a real person and real life consequences of these interactions.
I’m not sure people would be as forgiving, if they met JA in real life.
But I do like her, and not because of her sob story.
I like her, because she is brave. She is creative. She is smart. She can be rude sometimes, when it’s warranted. I like that she is not “girly-girly”. That she doesn’t think that everyone owes her something just because she has had a hard life. Because she loves her grandmother. And she shows her grandmother that she loves her. Because she is able to value DH’s decency and not see it as a weakness.
Because she wants to do and be better, not to drag down everyone to her level.
And because DH likes her.
I could probably say more, but I think I gave enough reasons why I like and eventually forgive JA.
@MariaF – those are all decent attributes that you’ve mentioned. Unfortunately, I can’t even remember the specific behavior of Jian’s that I didn’t approve of but I think it was something that she did to ML before she got to know him. But that’s all neither here nor there because I don’t like how sullen she is. Yes, there are people who are sullen and I don’t automatically dislike them for it. It’s a combination of the behavior and the sulleness just makes me not want to spend time with this character. That’s why I could watch show once, acknowledge it was good, but never want to watch it again. It’s too much like the reality that I escaped from. I use Kdrama as an escape so I mostly stick with rom-coms and fantasy.
Totally agree – she is sullen in the beginning, and pretty shy and still reserved as the episodes go on. But you see her warm heart (hidden at first) and how much she takes DH’s words to heart, to be kinder to people. By the end, her transformation is quite something.
But yeah, you don’t watch My Mister to escape. When I watched it the first time, I thought I’d never watch it again. Today, a year later, I’ve watched it a ton of times (probably like you and Healer) and each time I still find more things. And love the story even more.
@Maria – why does DH like her? My impression is he’s just a very good guy who had pity for her. What is it that he likes about her?
(If you guys have already exhausted this topic, then it’s okay to just tell me that it’s already been talked to death and I can live without knowing.)
DH likes her because she encourages him in the way he desperately needs. They also share the same values – protectiveness of family, and a fierce loyalty. When DH sees how much JA is taking care of her grandmother, he’s impressed with her – he hadn’t expected that from this cold, sullen girl. He also does think she’s pretty, which is a surprise for the audience to hear.
And the longer they are friends (which really isn’t that long), the more they fight for each other and stand up for each other. He really needed someone to do that in his life, and she’s willing to go to bat for him because of how deeply she cares about him. But she also needed that as well.
At the end of the show, post time-skip, when they’re both healthy and thriving, they don’t “need” each other as much anymore, but we can see Ji An still has feelings for him, and he’s totally smitten.
beez,
wow girls, you really go at it AGAIN! impressive. i feel that i dwelled on that drama so much that i think i said enough already. so i am out on this.
but just one jump in.
why does DH like her?
very simple. she gets him and he gets her. when somebody gets you, this is as close as you can get to the real person, it’s more than precious, and it does not happen very often. so here is the big appeal.
Haha, great to see you jump back in, Eda!
she gets him and he gets her.
Great reminder. Reminded me that he says as early as Ep 4 that there’s someone who knows him. And he knows her. And it makes him sad, at that point.
@eda, @the_sweetroad, and yes, you too @MariaF! STOP IT! Y’all are tempting me so much. But I don’t have time for it. Although now y’all have me thinking about someday giving it another watch.
STOP IT! Y’all are tempting me so much. But I don’t have time for it.
So I shouldn’t tell you that I seriously, really think it’s one of the greatest love stories of all time. ❤️❤️
😀
@beez
Y’all are tempting me so much.
Remember ‘The graduate’?
”Mrs. Robinson, you are trying to seduce me.”
I’m like Jian – “just hit me Show so I can quit liking you!”
Speaking of which, I just watched and, to me, it looked more like a shove of her arm. A forceful shove, but I didn’t see his hand anywhere near her face.
@the_sweetroad – I see no need for him to apologize at all! It was almost like he had to hit her (which I don’t think he did) to knock some sense into her and ward off what he might see as a huge complication he didn’t want in his life.
@beez, did you not think he hit her on the back of the head? If you watch the beginning of Ep 11 😀, they’ll show it more clearly. He takes her head and shoves it.
Oh! Good for her! That’s what she gets! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
And you’re not slick @the_sweetroad. You’re just trying to get me to start ep11 cause you know I won’t be able to quit.
*hearing Curtis Mayfield “I’m yo’ pusherman” running through my head* 🎵🎷🎶
Well. Episode 11 is one of the best episodes. 🤣
@beez
He hit her in the head. You could hear a sound when he hit her, so it wasn’t a light slap or something. You could see his hand on her head in the photo that the detective took. Parts of that scene are replayed in the beginning of the following episode. Maybe it could be seen better there.
@Maria F – 🎼🎶🎵 Got to get mellow, now. oooo oooo🎵
(FYI – That’s the chorus)
@beez @the_sweetroad
Also, as I said in my earlier comment, what makes it worse is that he knew she’d been beaten up severely and abused by men. He saw her bruises, for G-d’s sake!
He can’t give her a hug, because he is a decent man, but it’s ok for him to hit her?
It’s even worse than that! As I was skimming through, there’s a scene at 27 mins or thereabouts, where he and Jian are walking toward the bus stop and he tells her “Let’s try to make it through life without getting hit”. SMH
@beez
Right! I forgot about that. Look who is talking.
Actually the no hug and hit are two sides of the same coin. He sees himself as a certain type of man – uber decent. The answer is “no”, he can’t give her hug because of their strong connection and feelings he’d be inviting trouble of the kind he doesn’t want. That is exactly how people who have no intention of sleeping outside their marriage slip up – even though innocent intentions. And later because Jian is forcing the issue that he’s already trying to resist. Pop goes the weasel! 👏
@beez
Pop goes the weasel!
😂😂😂
I like her, because she is brave. She is creative. She is smart. She can be rude sometimes, when it’s warranted. I like that she is not “girly-girly”. That she doesn’t think that everyone owes her something just because she has had a hard life. Because she loves her grandmother. And she shows her grandmother that she loves her. Because she is able to value DH’s decency and not see it as a weakness.
Because she wants to do and be better, not to drag down everyone to her level.
And because DH likes her.
I love this and totally agree. Mind you, at first I really didn’t like JA, especially when she was scheming against Park Dong Un and Dong Hoon. However, her tenderness toward her grandmother, and the softness in her eyes when she heard Dong Hoon saying, “You don’t do that to family,” won me over by Ep 4. She’s a complicated character, but by the end her true self can shine through because of the healing she’s gone through with DH’s help. And to see her being a part of the Hugye community is beautiful. I love her story.
Great point, MariaF! Ji An certainly knew how to speak truth and goad them.
It does bother me that DH hit her, for one, and that he never did apologize. I think he did want to – he pulled out his phone at the beginning of Ep 11, and he kept getting distracted at Jung Hee’s bar and at home while flashing back to the incident. But the next time he talked to her, it was to ask where his slippers had gone off to.
Maybe he apologized in one of the conversations we weren’t privy to. I like to think that at some point Ji An apologized directly to him, too, for wiretapping him.
@the_sweetroad
Ji An certainly knew how to speak truth and goad them.
That’s for sure. But I didn’t expect them to react the same way. It bothered me.
Especially because DH knew JA’s story. He saw her bruises. And he still hit her. And not lightly. You could hear a sound of that smack.
DH is a very gentle person, he respects women. Even when he found out about the affair, he didn’t hit his wife. When they were having that confession conversation, he hit the bedroom door, not his wife.
And yet, he hit JA. And for what?
I know that there is a lot of non-verbal communications and understanding between them. I know that they love and forgive each other. Like DH said, when you know a person, it doesn’t matter what they do. But I still think it wasn’t right for him to hit her. And then behave as if it didn’t happen.
And that poor JA. It’s as if she thinks nothing of being hit by a man. In the show she was hit by the CEO, by the loan shark, and even by DH himself.
I like to think that at some point Ji An apologized directly to him, too, for wiretapping him.
She did show remorse by not listening to his conversations, asking him, if he hated her for what she’d done, telling him that she wanted him to be happy. But, of course, there was no formal apology. Yet.
I know that there is a lot of non-verbal communications and understanding between them. I know that they love and forgive each other. Like DH said, when you know a person, it doesn’t matter what they do. But I still think it wasn’t right for him to hit her. And then behave as if it didn’t happen.
Totally agree. I was really shocked that the show went there, when I first watched it. Guess it just shows how much JA’s words rattled him. As @actionscript (I believe) has said – at that point in the show DH was still planning on enduring in his marriage, and HE didn’t know that Ji An knew about Yoon Hee’s affair. So for him, it was like, “How dare you say I like you? I’m a (happily-) married man!” She shook up the façade he was trying to present to the world.
But of course, JA knew about the affair, knew that YH wasn’t all that committed to returning to him, and JA had to provide “results” to Do Joon Young in the next two days. So she goaded him.
But it was completely unacceptable that he hit her and didn’t apologize.
And that poor JA. It’s as if she thinks nothing of being hit by a man. In the show she was hit by the CEO, by the loan shark, and even by DH himself.
Seriously! Unacceptable on all counts, and she shouldn’t take that kind of crap from anyone. As a child she was beaten until she passed out, so I guess she doesn’t really know any differently 🙁
so I guess she doesn’t really know any differently
That’s what makes it so sad…
That’s so true.
*pssssst* Do y’all think that “pop goes the weasel” comment will count as one strike against me? 🤫
🤣🤣😂
Hope not.
I loved it.
Why would it? What’s it from? 🙂
I’m just joking (because of what got me on this thread in the first place – you know – the conversation we all had over in the Healer thread.)
@the_sweetroad _ I’m sorry. I forget we’re an international group and you may not know that Pop Goes the Weasel is a children’s nursery rhyme (in America, probably Europe too):
‘Round and ’round the mulburry bush, the monkey chased the weasel, up and down and all around – POP goes the weasel!
No one seems to know exactly what happened to the Weasel but I always pictured him flying off a merry go ’round at the moment of the “pop”. Maybe somebody else can provide a much more solid answer about the nursery rhyme because it never actually mentioned a merry go ’round.
But anyway, it can be used to indicate somebody got whacked or it can be a sexual innuendo.
In DH and Jian’s case, I meant “pop” as in the “Oo up side the head” variety😆
I wrote a response about what Pop Goes the Weasel means to me but had no real knowledge of where the nursery rhyme came from. My comment seems to have vanished while I was hunting down this (if anyone cares to read):
https://allnurseryrhymes.com/pop-goes-the-weasel/
But here’s the part I liked in the article:
Whatever the original meaning of the song was, when it became popular in the USA in the 1850’s, the phrase “Pop Goes the Weasel” was used as “just like that”.
DH “popped” her a good one “just like that”!
Hi @beez, oh sorry, you went to all that trouble to type that out. I totally know that song – grew up with it! But I didn’t know why you would get in trouble for it. I had thought it was an inside joke from an earlier group watch or something like that, and I asked “What’s it from?” to perhaps get a fun explanation. But you just meant that DH popped her a good one, literally. Non-licentiously! Got it!! 🙂 🙂
So glad you joined us here! 😁
@the_sweetroad- I’m not really hear. As long as I can resist starting ep11 to check that slap. So I’m not listening to your “siren song” trying to lure me in.
*lalalalalalalalalalalala I can’t heeeeeeaar you lalalalalalala*
Haha, it’s not *my* siren song. It’s the masterpiece of My Mister beckoning you in. You know, just to get your questions answered. Just 5 minutes of Ep 11 is all you need. 😁
(But if you can watch all the way until he chases after her and goes on an impassioned monologue, finishing with, “Buy me another pair of slippers!”, then your heart will expand and it will have been an even better day. Just saying.)
🙉🙊🙈
I’m not buying your crack today, Ms. Pusherman.
Note to self: “Just say ‘no’!”
😁😁🤣🤣
I managed to only watch that 15 seconds and quickly turned it off!
I concede that his hand was splayed over her face-head. It looked more like a grip shove. But was that DH’s purposeful way to not just slap the stew out of her or is that just the way it was filmed to not cause harm to the actress?
@beez
15 seconds and quickly turned it off!
The whole 15 seconds? You are brave!
Good question about the slap. Surely, they didn’t want to harm the actress.😊
I think (I hope) DH didn’t intend to strike JA with such force. But, as @the_sweetroad wrote, he was so rattled by her words, he overdid it. However, even if that were the case, it would be a poor excuse for what he’d done. DH is twice JA’s size. He should’ve found a less violent way to stop her.
Good job, @beez! 🤣
Yeah, in that instance he was so shaken that he instinctively hit her that way. Even though I don’t like that he hit her at all, I think it makes sense that it was her head – it contained the mouth that was spewing stuff he found so shocking.
What’s interesting is that in all the other times Ji An or anyone else told him Ji An liked him (after this episode), he never said, “Hey, you need to stop this. It’s inappropriate, I’m married, we have no future, I don’t feel the same way, stop telling people that you like me,” etc.
Instead, he deflected with questions or self-deprecating remarks, or he said nothing. And in this instance in Ep 10, when she implied that he liked her, he reacted violently. It’s just veerrry interesting.
Thought you might appreciate that thought, since you like teasing out these kinds of interpersonal dynamics. 😁
“Quickly turned it off” – LOL.
From what I recall, I view him like this – “resist the devil by fleeing” (that’s not the actual scripture verse), but I view DH as seeing it like this. If you entertain a thought, next you’ll act on it. He probably has to violently push it [the thought]/[her] away in order to not be “that guy”.
“That guy” being the cliche that takes advantage of young girl’s infatuation.
Look at all the men we saw exposed (morally and literally) because they thought (only in their mind) women were infatuated with them so thought it’s be a good idea to whip their private parts out in front of them. DH is not that guy, but many, many men who aren’t normally that guy, can become that guy when a pretty girl won’t let go. And Jian was setting him up (intentionally or unintentionally) to become that guy. I can’t remember if that was really part of her set up at this point in the story or if she sincerely liked him at this point. (?)
@beez
She was in love with him at that point.
I agree with you about “those guys” and him not wanting to become one.
But he also shouldn’t behave like one of “those guys” who hit young women, when they are frustrated, because they are fighting their own demons.
true dat
@the_sweetroad
it makes sense that it was her head – it contained the mouth that was spewing stuff he found so shocking
Didn’t he hit her in the head, because she told him to? I think she overheard him telling his deputy about mr. Kim, who was infatuated with someone in the office, “Just slap him on the back of his head, and it will all go away “ – I’m paraphrasing. Or I misunderstood that?
I’m married, we have no future, I don’t feel the same way
Exactly! He didn’t say it to her even at that moment.
By the way, she said it to him in front of the detective, so he could reject her. But I don’t think she really expected him to hit her, and so hard at that.
That’s why she took away the slippers after that scene. Because he rejected her so violently. And that’s why she thought he’d fire her.
But that slippers conversation made her realize that he will not (just can’t) let her disappear from his life completely. Not ever.
And when she was looking at him, while he was walking away, I thought she was thinking “You don’t even know how you feel.”
yup. In ep10, I don’t recall her saying specifically “in the head”, but in ep11 she specifically almost begged him to “hit me in the head”.
I also think he may have taken her asking if he likes her as an insult like – “don’t lump me in with what you’re used to from the men you’ve been surrounded by when I’ve only been good to you and mean good toward you”.
Unfortunate that in hitting her it does sort of put him in that group but we know that’s not really who he is. In that sense, she’s toxic because she’s from a toxic environment.
I’ve had girlfriends who told me things like “I don’t believe he loves me unless he hits me”. Because that’s what they grew up seeing their parents do. It’s a warped twisted ingrained sickness. I’m not saying Jian equates love with striking her, but I believe she was not going to stop until he hit her.
(If I’m causing you guys to rehash what you’ve already said, then just ignore me, or just put links to your other comments if I’m tiring you out. I’ll be leaving for Resurrection Sunday service in a bit anyway so if you don’t feel compelled to respond, it’s okay. I understand. And I’ll probably forget what we’re talking about if I don’t see any responses in my email. ☺️) Have a blessed day, y’all!
@beez, I was just re-reading some of your comments and was curious if you watched any more of MM after quickly turning off Episode 11 🙂
Hope your move went well!
@the_sweetroad – I’m still movING. 😆 I won’t rewatch My Mister for probably another 5 years or so. I really don’t like the change in tone of Kdramas so I’m not watching most of the new shows. (I’ll watch if any of my biases are in anything though.) I’ll now be catching up on all the dramas from before 2020 that I never got around to watching. Since My Mister doesn’t fit my escapism criteria, it will be a while before it makes my rotation for a rewatch although you guys made it sound very enticing to revisit.
Makes sense! MM really isn’t all that escapist, at least not overtly so. 🙂
Moving is a lot of work. Take care of yourself and enjoy your new place!
Thanks @the_sweetroad! I have a little more time to pack than I originally thought. I have about 2 weeks but I’m going to need every day! When packing before, I could only get about 2-3 boxes a day packed, but my son is paying the lady he pays to help me clean to come extra hours to help me pack. I’m excited!
@beez
I’m excited for you! Do you know people in your new neighborhood?
Not a one. But I don’t know anyone in my current neighborhood where I’ve been for 3 years. (The new neighborhood is almost exactly 1 mile away.) But because I don’t get out much, and then with the pandemic, I haven’t even been going to church (they don’t believe in masks down here in Florida so hundreds of people singing with open mouths…) so I haven’t met any one either.
But thanks for sharing in my excitement, MariaF🥰
Yes, this pandemic is definitely not conducive to meeting people.
And with ‘hundreds of people singing with open mouths’, it would be too risky for anyone with a compromised immune system to go to church, masks or no masks.
This pandemic makes you think how vulnerable humans are…
Seriously. I looked it up yesterday and it looks like 6 million people have died from Covid during the pandemic. I imagine the number is probably much higher. 🙁
😔
@the_sweetroad
You are right. We also can’t dismiss the indirect victims. People who missed their med checkups or whose treatment was delayed because of lockdowns or fear. Also people with mental problems, who couldn’t handle isolation. Just terrible!
@MariaF,
Didn’t he hit her in the head, because she told him to? I think she overheard him telling his deputy about mr. Kim, who was infatuated with someone in the office, “Just slap him on the back of his head, and it will all go away “ – I’m paraphrasing. Or I misunderstood that?
Oh yes! You’re right. That’s why JA herself asked DH to hit her in the head. I had forgotten that, so forget my theory.
That’s why she took away the slippers after that scene. Because he rejected her so violently. And that’s why she thought he’d fire her.
Yeah, she has her own deep insecurities. As she asked Do Joon Young in Ep 8 when he talked to her about eating and drinking with DH, “What kind of nutcase would like someone like me?” So when DH called her a crazy b**** and rejected her so soundly, it was like self-fulfilling prophecy. And she really was embarrassed and thought their friendship could be done.
But that slippers conversation made her realize that he will not (just can’t) let her disappear from his life completely. Not ever.
She was shocked!! And what he said made her like him more. 🙂
@the_sweetroad
These are my random thoughts.
I don’t think I’ll be saying anything new.
When you mentioned the gun, I thought how well MM uses JA’s name. In the begging of the show DH asks JA what her name means, in the middle of it he tells her to live up to her name, and during the last moments of the show DH asks JA if she is living up to her name.
Another example is how SH’s daughter was introduced to us during her wedding in the beginning of the show.
Later on DH mentions her, when he wants SH to stop talking dirty about JA.
That conversation would’ve been more abstract and impersonal, if we hadn’t met the daughter before.
Actually, having the wedding in the beginning of the show was a very efficient way of letting the viewers know how bad things were financially and emotionally in that family.
DH’s wife didn’t bother to attend the wedding
DH had to give DS money and buy him a suit.
DS tried to steal money from his own daughter and had a heated conversation with his wife.
By the way, I read a couple of comments on soompi.
Someone quoted Thomas Zhang there. I assume he is the same person, who thought that DH would’ve continued working in the old office with the gossipy secretaries after everyone knew about his wife’s affair and JA’s story, supposedly to “honor JA”.
We definitely don’t see eye to eye, because I can’t agree with what he said in the quoted comment.
“He could let his niece become a friend of JA.”
In my experience, people don’t become friends just because their uncles/bosses “let them”.
Also, in what universe JA would’ve become besties with DH’s niece (a newlywed, happy young woman), who could never understand JA’s struggles and the kind of life she was leading at the time?
They had absolutely nothing in common.
“He could let the three employees with him move JA’s grandmother to the nursing home, not all by himself alone.”
Again, in what universe JA would’ve agreed to let employees from that gossipy office get involved in her (miserable) life? Especially Mr. Kim.
These are just my opinions, of course. And I didn’t read other comments. I might do it later.
MariaF, I’m finally getting a moment to catch up here. (Too many shows I had to watch over the weekend!)
In the begging of the show DH asks JA what her name means, in the middle of it he tells her to live up to her name, and during the last moments of the show DH asks JA if she is living up to her name.
Great point. It seemed like small talk the first time, but then at the very end you see what a big deal her name, and living up to her name, was to the entire show. And when he first asked her what her name meant, she hesitated as if it were painful to say, “comfortable” because they both knew she wasn’t comfortable at that point.
Actually, having the wedding in the beginning of the show was a very efficient way of letting the viewers know how bad things were financially and emotionally in that family.
You are so right. What was supposed to be a happy occasion turned into a fiasco and you got a good feel for the dynamics in this family. I felt the most for the three brothers’ mom at that wedding 🙁 .
As an aside – It’s heartwarming to me that Sang Hoon’s wife still comes over and visits omma. She and omma maintained their relationship even if she and Sang Hoon were separated. It’s yet another contrast with Yoon Hee – she never made time to go visit omma, and they always treated her as a guest in their dinners at omma’s house. Who knows which came first? But even after 15 years of marriage, she was still being treated as a guest, and she still hated everyone around Dong Hoon (including his family, I assumed).
In my experience, people don’t become friends just because their uncles/bosses “let them”.
First of all, that’s interesting that you dropped into the Soompi thread there! 🙂
I hear you. I would imagine relationships are even more compartmentalized in Korea, too, than they are in less-formal, less-hierarchical societies. If I remember correctly, Thomas’s point was that Dong Hoon seemed to want to keep Ji An to himself (maybe because he didn’t know what to do with her, anyway) instead of involving his wife or his other Hugye friends in supporting and helping her. It was like Ji An was his special relationship/ treasure. But I need to go back and read.
MariaF, I’m finally getting a moment to catch up here. (Too many shows I had to watch over the weekend!)
I totally understand. I’m busy myself (not with the shows though 😊).
I’m grateful that we can have these exchanges once in a while. Thank you.
Below are just a couple of thoughts. I’ll write a little bit more later.
Thomas’s point was that Dong Hoon seemed to want to keep Ji An to himself (maybe because he didn’t know what to do with her, anyway) instead of involving his wife or his other Hugye friends in supporting and helping her.
If I understood correctly, Thomas thinks that the fact that DH didn’t involve SH daughter/ DH’s wife/DH’s neighborhood friends/their coworkers in the beginning proves that DH wanted JA for himself.
My point is that it doesn’t prove anything.
DH didn’t involve anyone, because it wasn’t possible. He knew that there was no way JA would have agreed to it at the time.
But he did involve other people, when the time was right, and when it became necessary. By that time DH and JA already developed friendship and love (platonic or not), so it was possible for JA to trust DH enough to accept help from “his people”.
By the way, that’s the important difference between DH and YH: for him, being part of a community doesn’t take anything away from a special relationship between a husband and wife (or any other two people who love each other).
Unfortunately, YH couldn’t see it that way and wanted DH to himself.
I want to say a few words about DH’s crying.
I agree that after the younger brother told DH that he didn’t need JA to heal, his process of self healing started.
But I doubt DH cried just because he lost JA. It was more than that.
DH cried for many other reasons: his ruined love for YH and his broken hopes for having a happy family; the struggles and humiliations that he and YH had to go through; his son, who would have to deal with the separation and eventual divorce of his parents (that poor boy).
It makes sense that the whole ordeal left DH heartbroken. And how could it not? Even if he moves on eventually.
But he did involve other people, when the time was right, and when it became necessary. By that time DH and JA already developed friendship and love (platonic or not), so it was possible for JA to trust DH enough to accept help from “his people”.
Good point! There was a progression there as their friendship and comfort level increased.
By the way, that’s the important difference between DH and YH: for him, being part of a community doesn’t take anything away from a special relationship between a husband and wife (or any other two people who love each other).
Absolutely agree. Even if YH had succeeded in moving the family elsewhere, I think they would have still had the same problem, if DH had wanted to get involved in the community and meet people, and she just wanted him to focus on her.
But I doubt DH cried just because he lost JA. It was more than that.
DH cried for many other reasons: his ruined love for YH and his broken hopes for having a happy family; the struggles and humiliations that he and YH had to go through; his son, who would have to deal with the separation and eventual divorce of his parents (that poor boy).
Just to be clear: I agree with this. My strong impression upon first watch was that DH broke down crying after looking at his family portrait while he was eating. And I would imagine the bribe trauma and stress from Saman, as well as losing JA’s company, also contributed to him finally having a cathartic cry.
That impression has never really left me even after multiple watches. I don’t think he was crying only because he missed JA; that would be too narrow of a reason for someone who had never cried like that. Plus, Ki Hoon wanted him to cry his eyes out when KH found out about the affair, and was troubled that DH didn’t seem to be able to do that. So I think it was the whole ball of wax, especially the breakup of his family. Which lends more credence to the theory that he and YH separated/ divorced.
@MariaF,
Also, I bought the re-released script book box set!! Super reasonable price ($44USD, plus more for shipping and taxes in Europe), and it got to me in 5 days! I was so excited. I can’t read it at all except with my camera on Google Translate, but at least I have them :). If anyone wants the link to buy them, here it is. 🙂 They’re still available for sale for now: https://www.ktown4u.com/iteminfo?goods_no=74466
Anyway, two gems from the script that I thought you’d appreciate are:
Ep 16, when they meet for the last time at their regular bar: the instructions for Dong Hoon say that he’s suppressing his tears after Ji An has announced that she’s leaving, but he has to accept the news, smile, and toast her.
Ep 16, in the final scene during the handshake, Ji An asks Dong Hoon to dinner. And the instructions in the script for Dong Hoon say, (“I’m smiling so hard I think I’m going to cry, so I have to look away.”) I always thought he looked away because he was feeling shy! But the script makes it clear that he’s so happy she’s asking him to dinner that he’s emotional and about to cry!
We know from Ki Hoon that if Dong Hoon cries it’s a big deal and Something Very Important is happening, so I thought it was so interesting that in the script itself the instructions have him suppress tears or look away because he’s about to cry. Both Ji An leaving, and her coming back and wanting to re-connect, were major things for his heart.
@the_sweetroad
Thank you for the link!
As an aside – It’s heartwarming to me that Sang Hoon’s wife still comes over and visits omma. She and omma maintained their relationship even if she and Sang Hoon were separated.
Yep! That relationship, SH and his wife’s constant bickering, and the fact that they sang a happy song together at DH’s promotion celebration made me believe that they would reconcile.
Which lends more credence to the theory that he and YH separated/ divorced.
Agree. I think that for DH, crying was like crossing the Rubicon: he mourned his painful past and left it behind.
DH was done with his “before JA” life and his “before JA” personality.
Of course, DH couldn’t know whether he’d see JA again. Yet, their relationship was not dead: anything could happen. DH/YH marriage, on the other hand, was kaput.
Even if YH had succeeded in moving the family elsewhere, I think they would have still had the same problem.
Totally agree. They would’ve ended up being miserable and resentful anyway. That “keeping to herself” was YH’s thing, not DH’s.
Both Ji An leaving, and her coming back and wanting to re-connect, were major things for his heart.
His poor heart! It had to endure so much! You are right: almost crying was a big deal.
I have another question: when JA told DH after her interview that he was a very good person, DH also turned away. I wonder what kind of instructions were given to LSK in that scene.
Happy Sunday, MariaF!
Thank you for the link!
Will you be buying the script set? 😃
That relationship, SH and his wife’s constant bickering, and the fact that they sang a happy song together at DH’s promotion celebration made me believe that they would reconcile.
Haha yes! They were so cheery singing that song, it was cute to watch. The brothers’ stories sometimes get overlooked in the shadow of Dong Hoon and Ji An’s dramatic redemption/ growth arcs, but it’s great that Sang Hoon, who was such a “failure” in the beginning of the show, ends up happy in his cleaning job and reconciled to his wife.
Agree. I think that for DH, crying was like crossing the Rubicon: he mourned his painful past and left it behind.
I had to look up “Rubicon” on Wikipedia. I learned a bunch about Julius Caesar. Thank you! 🙂 (I didn’t grow up in Europe, and I usually stay away from “boring” ancient history!)
Agree with you – that cathartic cry was a turning point and he finally realized how broken/ unhappy he was. I think he had to come to that realization before he could finally take steps forward.
I have another question: when JA told DH after her interview that he was a very good person, DH also turned away. I wonder what kind of instructions were given to LSK in that scene.
Good question. I just checked. Google Translate says,
Jian: You’re a good person. Very.
Donghoon is crying even though he has a meaningless smile. On Donghoon’s face like that.
[INSERT] Episode 11: “The moment you had an affair with that bastard, you sentenced me to death. Park Dong Hoon, even if you are treated like this, you are a cheap person, and you are a worthless person. Just die…”
At that thought, Donghoon is about to cry, so he just stares at another place and presses his sorrows and emotions like that.
(End of scene and end of episode)
Very interesting, actually! I’d always thought he smiled and looked away from Ji An because he was feeling shy since she complimented him so strongly. But the instructions just say that he’s crying and smiling a meaningless smile. Guess he really did need to hear someone say those things to him, but he’s still trying to keep up some kind of pleasant façade. Then after his flashback, he’s about to cry so he has to look away to suppress his emotions.
All this suppression cannot be good for him.
Hello, the_sweetroad.🍻
I apologize for not responding to your comment sooner. A friend of mine had to undergo a very serious surgery. I just couldn’t think of anything else.
I’m glad you read a little bit about Julius Caesar. My late father was a history teacher, so I learned to like history from him. I can’t remember much nowadays though. Well, maybe it’s for the best 😊
He finally realized how broken/ unhappy he was. I think he had to come to that realization before he could finally take steps forward.
I think DH always knew that he was unhappy. He just didn’t know how to free himself from the misery, how to move on.
JA and his monk friend helped him realize that he must allow himself to be happy.
I’d always thought he smiled and looked away from Ji An because he was feeling shy
That’s what I thought. I rewatched those two scenes, and DH still looks as if he were feeling shy.
I saw your question on soompi.
I might be wrong, but I never got an impression that DH routinely walked JA home after work.
They sometimes rode subway together, but they went their separate ways after that.
JA went to her second job on most nights. DH usually met with his brothers and friends at JH’s place.
That’s why DH was looking for JA to pass by the JH’s place on her way home from the second job.
My understanding is that DH walked JA home after having a meal/drinks at the bar together.
But they didn’t have to pass JH’s place on their way: they were coming from a different direction.
The one time they worked late, they went home together and immediately ran into his friends.
There is one more thing I’ve noticed.
Throughout the show YH drank coffee from a dark cup, but in her US picture she holds a white cup in her hand.
Does this mean she has been forgiven? She has become one of the good guys, maybe…
By the way, I can’t always access soompi MM forum. Is something going on there?
I apologize for not responding to your comment sooner. A friend of mine had to undergo a very serious surgery. I just couldn’t think of anything else.
No apologies necessary at all, Maria! Hope your friend is doing OK; I’m sure he/she was glad to have you there.
On this end, some days are a flurry of activity on TFGV for me, and some days I don’t have a chance to come on at all. Today is obviously the former. 😁
My late father was a history teacher, so I learned to like history from him.
Nice. I should probably have a better attitude toward my husband, who was a history major and in particular loves reading about WWII. I usually glaze over when the topic comes up, which is too bad.
I think DH always knew that he was unhappy. He just didn’t know how to free himself from the misery, how to move on.
JA and his monk friend helped him realize that he must allow himself to be happy.
Very good point. I think you’re right in that DH knew he was unhappy, and that JA and Monk pointed out that he had permission to actually be happy.
JA went to her second job on most nights. DH usually met with his brothers and friends at JH’s place.
Thanks for engaging with my question here. I tend to think that they’re not in the habit of walking home together, too, and your data here is helpful. In fact, the show shows JA going to her second job, and DH spending time at Jung Hee’s, more frequently than it shows the two of them walking home together.
How are you liking the Soompi Forum, by the way? Did you start reading the MM thread from the beginning? 🙂 When I first found the forum, I could only stomach starting the thread from about page 183, right as everyone was live watching Episode 16 or so. (I didn’t think I had enough patience to start from page 1.) But even so there was a LOT of back reading to do!
Since Sunday, Soompi has crashed multiple times, so it’s not just you. I had a post all ready to go last night on the MM thread, and just as I clicked “Submit Reply” the “community could not be found.” Maybe it was my fault!
Throughout the show YH drank coffee from a dark cup, but in her US picture she holds a white cup in her hand.
Oh, interesting! I never noticed that – great catch! Seems like that could be a deliberate production choice.
Does this mean she has been forgiven? She has become one of the good guys, maybe…
Yes, I agree. She did seem repentant in the latter episodes, even if their marriage didn’t appear salveagable. And since Dong Hoon had three pictures of her on his desk, my understanding was that he had already forgiven her (but wasn’t married to her anymore, since he had disappeared from those photos).
If he still loathed her and if he couldn’t stand seeing her (particularly in Ep 10 when he went home and then immediately went back out to the street), then the fact that he was OK seeing her in three pictures on his desk might be another good contrast here. I.e. he doesn’t hate her anymore, and he has a warm enough relationship with her that he’s receiving photos from her and displaying them. She always seemed like a good enough mom, so DH is probably very happy that she can be with Ji Seok.
As a viewer, it’s nice to see DH and YH maintain a warm connection, for the sake of their son.
@the_sweetroad
I usually glaze over when the topic comes up
I can’t blame you. WWII was so bloody. It also happened less than a hundred years ago. People who lived through that war are still alive.
Ancient history, on the other hand, might as well be history of Martians. Or a fairytale. The world was totally different then.
DH is probably very happy that she can be with Ji Seok.
We wondered before why DH’s son is in the States.
That’s why! So that YH can go away and stay there. It was the best way to end their marriage.
Out of sight, out of mind. It’s definitely easier to stop hating a person, if he or she is hundreds of miles away.
Did you start reading the MM thread from the beginning?
G-d, no. I’ve been reading just the last pages. So far, I have mixed feelings about that discussion. Certain posts are definitely very interesting. Others are kind of repetitive.
Maybe I’ll post something there one day.
Anyone can do it, right? People there are not going to say “Who the h**ll are you?”.
We wondered before why DH’s son is in the States.
That’s why! So that YH can go away and stay there. It was the best way to end their marriage.
Good point! Just like halmeoni passing away when she did, Ji Seok being away was a convenient (and realistic) plot device. Plus, Ji Seok living away from mom and dad exacerbated the tension between YH and DH. They had no buffer in their home life, nothing to “do” together like raise a child – and no reason to be home in the evenings.
Have you heard the phrase “multi-causal, multi-maintained”? We used it in psychology classes to describe how issues and psychopathologies can begin and then perpetuate. I feel like the brokenness of DH’s marriage was multi-causal, multi-maintained, and one reason was Ji Seok’s absence.
I’ve been reading just the last pages. So far, I have mixed feelings about that discussion. Certain posts are definitely very interesting. Others are kind of repetitive.
🙂 Ha! Sometimes we are definitely re-hashing stuff for sure. And sometimes I need to have the energy and capacity to engage with some of the more detailed ideas.
Maybe I’ll post something there one day.
Anyone can do it, right? People there are not going to say “Who the h**ll are you?”.
Would love to have your insights and comments! If you read page 327, you’ll see that’s when I joined the thread. (I only know it’s page 327 because I always went to that page to see if anyone responded 🙂 ). For a few months it was just me talking to the air and getting things out of my system, until actionscript joined. Then others started joining in, one at a time, and we’ve loved hearing from all of them even if not everyone posts much or regularly.
So yes! Anyone can jump in at any time, even if you just post once, or more as things strike you. Whatever is good!
And y’all said that I was obsessed with Healer?!!!!
👀😏 those are side eyes. 😄😅😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
EDITED TO ADD: Oops! This comment was meant to go under the the_sweetroad’s coffee cup observations.
LOL! 😂
I never said I wasn’t obsessed with MM!! The crazy thing is I only watched it for the first time one year ago. Since then I’ve spent countless hours reading about it and discussing it.
What do you think about the coffee mug colors, Beez? 😄
@the_sweetroad – I barely remember the meat of the story so subtle clues the director may have been trying to convey about a coffee cup are completely stranded somewhere in my oblivious subconscious!
How’s the move, Beez? And in your spare time, do you have The Sound of Magic on your radar? Ji Chang Wook plays a different kind of character there.
@the_sweetroad
I’m late with the response again🙁.
I had a total nightmare going on, but thankfully things have calmed down, at least for now. So my mind can finally concentrate on MM. it’s going to be a long comment.
They had no buffer in their home life, nothing to “do” together like raise a child – and no reason to be home in the evenings.
I feel like the brokenness of DH’s marriage was multi-causal, multi-maintained, and one reason was Ji Seok’s absence.
It’s an excellent observation: the brokenness of their marriage was definitely multi- everything.
However, I feel that Ji Seok’s absence simply exposed rather than caused/exacerbated their marital troubles. It’s a known empty nesters’ phenomenon: children leave, and parents realize that they have very little or nothing in common.
I rewatched all the coffee scenes I could remember last night :). Stayed up way too late.
Wow! I admire your dedication. In show of solidarity, I also rewatched the scenes you mentioned. 😊
I don’t think ep.1 counts. YH was in a hotel, so she probably didn’t even have a choice: all cups there were most likely the same color.
But in episodes 5, 7 and 13 she was at home with DH. So it was her choice to drink from a dark (more masculine) mug, while his was drinking from a white mug.
And after she repented, she started drinking from a light colored mug (Ep 15 and 16).
OR they weren’t thinking about mug colors back then
Well, I wasn’t intentionally analyzing YH’s drinking habits. It just struck me as odd that a woman would choose a darker cup.
Which, I admit, is a stereotype: women can drink from all kinds of cups.
But yes. Every time I notice something, I ask myself “Am I overthinking this?”
This over-analyzing/over interpreting kind of takes the fun out of the watching experience. It feels like dissecting a frog.
I think that tuna dinner discussion in soompi is a good example of seeing things that are simply not there.
Yes, DH did go to the supermarket, because he wanted to wait for JA, when she missed their subway stop.
So yes, he did call his mother, bought her what she asked him to buy, and brought the food to JH. DH also called his wife to ask if she needed anything, but she didn’t answer.
However, I agree with you that the tuna party wasn’t planned in advance.
No prearrangement was necessary.
It’s not like DH was a prime minister with a busy schedule.
I think PKH just called DH and said something like ”Hey! Do you want eat together? I’m buying”. The brothers had done it before (maybe not with tuna 😊). Also, DH would’ve called or texted his brothers, if he was running late.
I also doubt they were planing to go to JH’s place until DH told his brothers that he was being considered for the director’s position. That’s when the three of them decided to continue the celebration there, so the others could join them.
Also, honestly, the whole argument that “JA is more important than tuna” is kind of silly.
Another thing I wanted to mention is the script analysis.
I agree that it’s interesting to read, and it definitely clarifies a lot of things. However, I’m wary of using script as a Bible of sorts.
We have to accept the fact that what the writer wrote and what we ended up watching are not the same things.
In this show, the producer’s, the director’s, the actors’ and, yes, viewers’ input was enormous.
I’m positive that the show would’ve been different, hadn’t it been for the fans’ backlash. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.
I might be wrong, but I feel that in the script’s discussion there is too much of “we didn’t see it before we read the script, but now we know” going on. The thing is that we don’t know. The script can’t always reflect a director’s interpretation or an actor’s execution.
The show is the final product.
So I’m conflicted.
What do you think?
Hello MariaF! Hope your total nightmare is resolved now, or at least in process of being resolved. Unexpected crises can be so difficult.
I might be wrong, but I feel that in the script’s discussion there is too much of “we didn’t see it before we read the script, but now we know” going on. The thing is that we don’t know. The script can’t always reflect a director’s interpretation or an actor’s execution.
The show is the final product.
So I’m conflicted.
What do you think?
I’ve been thinking about this all weekend – it was a good exercise! – and I completely agree with you. For me, the first point of reference is the show, period. It is the final product, as you say, and whatever the script says, the writer and director had to work together (along with the actors) to make the show be what they wanted it to be.
However, the script is a nice reference for what the writer thought and the themes she was intentional about. Reading it has lent richness to the final product; for example (this is a small example but it was interesting to me!) knowing that the black tea at the soccer field in Ep 12 wasn’t blatant, non-sequitur product placement, but that the writer had wanted the ahjussis to drink something because they looked tired and she wanted them to have more energy.
Another example would be knowing that the time skip ends in May 2019, as explicitly written in the script. That was helpful, and I was very relieved when I saw it 🙂 . As you said in another thread, DH isn’t getting any younger.
So in my mind, the show comes first, and anything in the script that doesn’t match up with what we saw in the show I can notice, but also let go of since the PD and writer obviously chose to go another direction when actually filming.
However, I feel that Ji Seok’s absence simply exposed rather than caused/exacerbated their marital troubles. It’s a known empty nesters’ phenomenon: children leave, and parents realize that they have very little or nothing in common.
Good point! I was fleetingly wondering about this today, actually – what did draw YH and DH together? Was he more romantic in college when she met him? (Honestly, I can’t imagine that.) I think they met in a Western music club (hence, YH’s love for jazz). But now they really don’t seem to have much in common.
Wow! I admire your dedication. In show of solidarity, I also rewatched the scenes you mentioned. 😊
Ha! LOL.
I’m going to submit this now as we’ve had random power outages and I don’t want to have to re-type this.
@the_sweetroad
what did draw YH and DH together? Was he more romantic in college when she met him?
Based on what the show told us, I don’t think we can answer your question. We can only speculate.
DH must have been more romantic in college, otherwise YH probably wouldn’t have married him.
I think she always needed to feel “special” and “loved” (well, don’t we all?), and romantic gestures are the best way to show a girl that you are in love with her. And DH must have been in love. Or he thought he was.
I need to think a bit about what happened then and after they got married. I’ll write more, if I come up with something I want to discuss.
we’ve had random power outages
Is it because what’s going on in Ukraine?
Hi @MariaF, well, I tested positive for Covid yesterday so I’ll be at the computer more often for a few days!
DH must have been more romantic in college, otherwise YH probably wouldn’t have married him.
I think she always needed to feel “special” and “loved” (well, don’t we all?), and romantic gestures are the best way to show a girl that you are in love with her. And DH must have been in love. Or he thought he was.
True, DH must have turned on the charm at some point. And I’m reminded that he graduated #1 or #2 in his class (from high school, I believe) so he knew how to work hard and achieve results when he needed to. 🙂
In my mind, once he brought her home to Hugye, she couldn’t handle his friends/ lifetyle/ sharing him with others.
Is it because what’s going on in Ukraine?
Thankfully no. There were thunderstorms and random work going on in the street. But our gas prices have been rising quite a bit, like everywhere else in Europe (and I think in the US, too?).
Which is nothing compared to the horror the Ukrainians are living 🙁
@the_sweetroad
Covid can be very insidious. I hope you are feeling better. How is your family? Are you isolating now?
Ukrainians are suffering the most. And this conflict is going affect more and more people due to skyrocketing food prices and shortages. The whole ordeal is just terrible!
Hi MariaF, thought we might be better enough to work and resume normal activities tomorrow, but we’re still symptomatic so no can do. But slowly feeling better. The upside is I’ve been able to stay on top of My Liberation Notes and even start a Thai lakorn (drama) that someone on Soompi recommended. Thai lakorns are on another level. Ha!
Thanks for asking! Hope you and yours are having a good weekend. Have you been interested in My Liberation Notes? Same writer as MM, as you might know. Very good so far with beautifully-drawn characters and a tight story.
Hi the_sweetroad,
How are you? I hope your covid symptoms went away.
I haven’t started watching My Liberation Notes yet. I’m waiting for it to be finished.
Hi MariaF, thanks for asking! I’m finally feeling quite well and have been back to work now the past couple of days.
My Liberation Notes just has this weekend left (2 more episodes) and then will be done. Can’t wait to hear how you like it.
@the_sweetroad
And to answer your comment on soompi
So it makes it interesting that no one in the show brings up any objection to the age gap between DH and JA – since we know plenty of people do talk about them liking each other.
I think that’s because nobody realized how serious and multifaceted their relationship was. People thought it was just a fleeting affair.
It’s like the nasty secretary said :”You know how men are”.
The director who didn’t think JA was pretty told DH: “Even if you slept with her, we’ll just deny it”.
Because, in his mind, what else is there?
DH’s brothers eventually learned how important JA was to DH. And DH’s wife also knew, of course.
I think that’s what surprises me – that even after Sang Hoon and Ki Hoon (and even Jung Hee) learned how important JA was to DH, and could tell that JA and DH had a special bond, that they didn’t caution him, or tease him. Jung Hee announced to everyone at the promotion party that JA liked DH, and this would have confirmed what SH and KH were teasing DH about in the very early episodes. But whereas Ki Hoon warned DH back then, in the late episodes KH and SH seemed to accept and quietly respect whatever relationship DH and JA had.
If my brother were getting close to a girl 24 years his junior, and we all knew that she liked him, I’m not sure I would be so accepting!
It’s like the nasty secretary said :”You know how men are”. The director who didn’t think JA was pretty told DH: “Even if you slept with her, we’ll just deny it”.
Because, in his mind, what else is there?
Yep, everyone else jumped to their own conclusions.
By the way, how is the HITTG watch going? Between My Liberation Notes and Our Blues, I haven’t been able to keep up with HITTG. Maybe I’ll try to watch Eps 3 and 4 in the next couple days, though.
@the_sweetroad
in the late episodes KH and SH seemed to accept and quietly respect whatever relationship DH and JA had.
If my brother were getting close to a girl 24 years his junior, and we all knew that she liked him, I’m not sure I would be so accepting!
I totally see your point. And under normal circumstances I’d up in arms too.
But the situation with DH was not straightforward.
I think there were two major factors that affected how DH’s brothers reacted to DH/JA’s relationship (besides respecting and trusting him).
The first one was that they knew what kind of person JA was.
The second factor (and the most important one) was that DH’s brothers realized how much he needed help dealing with his life situation (personal and professional), and that having JA by his side would be the best way to help and, quite possibly, to save him.
It was “all hands on deck” time. JA’s age was the least of their worries.
As far as JH’s attitude goes, it just shows what kind of person she is.
Despite giving an impression of being kind of loud and flashy, she is very understanding, very wise and very discreet.
And, being in love for many years, JH would be the last person to judge DH.
It’s not a coincidence that DH brought JA to stay with her. JH was DH’s best friend’s girl. He trusted her more than others.
I’d like to add my 2 cents regarding open/closed ending discussion on soompi.
I absolutely agree with you that MM has an open ending.
At some point during our group watch I compared deciphering of this show to a police investigation and wrote that
“I like my “suspects to confess”. In the context of MM it means that, as much as I’m convinced that DH’s feelings are not platonic, I still consider the MM’s ending an open one.”
I could add to this that anything that requires collecting and interpreting clues is an open ending in my book.
Things don’t always work out the way we expect them to work out. People and life in general are unpredictable.
By the way, how is the HITTG watch going?
It’s going fine. Although I have to admit I haven’t been following this group watch as closely as the previous ones (SLA, MM and Healer).
But the show itself is great! I intend to rewatch it, with or without the group.
The first one was that they knew what kind of person JA was.
The second factor (and the most important one) was that DH’s brothers realized how much he needed help dealing with his life situation (personal and professional), and that having JA by his side would be the best way to help and, quite possibly, to save him.
It was “all hands on deck” time. JA’s age was the least of their worries.
This analysis was very helpful; thanks! I think you’re saying that essentially, they trusted her, and trusted her to be by DH’s side. “All hands on deck” is a great way to put it. And DH didn’t even reveal to them the full story, which was that YH slept with his boss.
It’s not a coincidence that DH brought JA to stay with her. JH was DH’s best friend’s girl. He trusted her more than others.
And they spent two weeks all alone, together, when they were looking for Monk. 😆
Not sure if you saw on GMS or on Soompi, but someone pointed out that Yoon Hee says to DH, “Everyone you care about is at Jung Hee’s.” And DH brought JA there. JH’s bar really was a safe nest for JA for the time being.
At some point during our group watch I compared deciphering of this show to a police investigation and wrote that “I like my “suspects to confess”. In the context of MM it means that, as much as I’m convinced that DH’s feelings are not platonic, I still consider the MM’s ending an open one.”
Yes! This. I had a vague recollection of something you had said, but I couldn’t find it nor remember it clearly.
I could add to this that anything that requires collecting and interpreting clues is an open ending in my book.
Completely agree. The show could have chosen to conclusively tell us all what was up, but they left so much open to interpretation. That was a choice they made, knowing that half their viewers wouldn’t see the loveline.
Add to that the fact that KWS, Park Hae Young, and Lee Sun Kyun always hemmed and hedged when asked about DH’s feelings…and it’s just not a closed ending for me. I wish it were! It would have saved me an enormous output of words over the last year. (My first watch spring 2021.) Haha.
But there is much more nuance, and subtlety, in this show than in something like Notting Hill where the endgame is Hugh Grant and Julia Roberts on a bench in the sun, with her pregnant. 🙂 Now that’s a “surefire kill” that they’re together.
It’s going fine. Although I have to admit I haven’t been following this group watch as closely as the previous ones (SLA, MM and Healer).
Remember the young heiress from SLA whose nose I couldn’t stop staring at? She’s in The Sound of Magic, Ji Chang Wook’s latest show. I still couldn’t stop staring 🙂
I have some time now, with Covid, so I may try to get back in to HITTG. Too much good stuff to watch!
Woah?! Seemed like I’m missing out on the after-party! So great to see you guys continuing the discussion!
@MariaF, on soompi, it’s not like there’s a whole lot of other people currently active. It’s mostly just me, @the_sweetroad, and another chingu. Plus, @the_sweetroad and I have quoted your words here at least a couple of times over there, and I’m sure they also read the comments in this blog, so you’d not come in as a stranger I’m sure. But of course you could always register under a totally different name and not tell us who you are. And act out as a non-shipper just to trigger us all. 😂
On why DH likes JA:
Before DH realized JA gets him, one of the early seeds planted was that he thought early on that JA threw the bribe money to save him. So the goading from KH on how JA must like DH because she threw away the money, must be running at the back of his mind as well. Also, from DH’s point of view, JA kissed him simply because she was bored! For DH who apparently finds JA pretty, all these events surely left an imprint on him.
By the time he discovers the truth about JA later on, he was already emotionally invested in her.
On DH’s hit:
Somehow since my first watch, what I have in mind was that JA exaggerated her reaction as she was acting out for the spy photographer. Though the still pictures shown in ep 11 seem to show otherwise, that thought (JA over- reacting) still stuck to me somehow, even up to now. I guess this is one of those instances it would be interesting to revisit what the script says about that scene. Guess it’s time I should also get my own copy. 😄
On KH and SH not raising the age-gap issue:
Ironically in the first few episodes when SH was teasing DH about JA, it was DH that was raising the age-gap by saying she’s only a kid, though KH did say young people can be impulsive.
By ep 13, KH was already explicitly on the divorce camp and pro-JA, but SH was still on the reconcile camp. By ep 16, when SH spent all his savings on JA, that for me was to thank DH for taking on the eldest son role in the family that he failed to perform. The fact that he coursed it through JA implied that for him, JA = DH already by then. Implicitly he has joined KH and jumped over to JA’s camp. For me, this is another puzzle in the mosaic analogy you so beautifully described.
On the open-ending:
I agree that it would be an open ending for most. But again using the mosaic puzzle analogy, despite the puzzle pieces not being 100% complete, there are enough pieces for one to conclude what the final picture the mosaic is trying to form.
Well, actionscript! We finally lured you back to this old thread!
I’m hesitant to join soompi. I don’t know why…
Here are thoughts regarding your comment.
A warning: I didn’t agree with everything you wrote.😊
On why DH likes JA…all these events surely left an imprint on him. By the time he discovers the truth about JA later on, he was already emotionally invested in her.
That’s true. He was. Still, I doubt DH liked JA in the beginning. She did help him out by throwing away the bribe, so he was grateful. But feeling gratitude is different from liking a person.
Besides, JA’s behavior afterwards wasn’t particularly noble. She literally blackmailed DH into buying her dinners (she would’ve accepted hush money, but he didn’t have that much).
Also, imagine a woman telling a man that she kissed him out of boredom, that she just wanted to see if the kiss would make her feel less bored. Turns out, no, she didn’t feel a thing.
How exciting is it for a man to hear that?
Sure, DH experienced various emotions even before he saw JA with her grandmother: he was curious, angry, grateful, sympathetic, sad, etc…
But I think that the actual liking (and respecting) started only after DH saw JA with her granny. And I don’t mean it was a man/woman thing.
Somehow since my first watch, what I have in mind was that JA exaggerated her reaction as she was acting out for the spy photographer.
Yes, it’s possible. JA might have exaggerated her reaction a bit, because she wanted the spy photographer to confirm to the CEO that he wasn’t wasting his money and, most importantly, that he didn’t need to start looking for someone else to bring DH down.
However (I already wrote this in my comment earlier), DH definitely used force: you can hear the sound of DH hitting JA in the head. And he didn’t help her to get up. He didn’t apologize to her either. Not cool.
SH spent all his savings on JA, that for me was to thank DH for taking on the eldest son role in the family that he failed to perform.
I don’t see it this way…
Its reasonable to assume that SH wanted to do something nice for JA, because she was DH’s true friend.
But him paying for grandmother’s funeral was more than paying back someone for something.
It was an act of human kindness, heartfelt sentiment beyond mere duty or gratitude.
That’s why, when JA also offered HS to pay back the funeral money, one of the Ajusshis said “You don’t have to. Life doesn’t need to be so calculating”.
By the way, I think it was significant that JA didn’t offer to pay back the money, when she thought DH had paid for the funeral. She just asked “Why are you being so nice to me?”
About the ending
You know that I believe that DH and JA ended up being in love.
However, it doesn’t bother me at all that some people don’t see DH and JA as romantic partners.
I like the ambiguity of the show and the uncertainty of its ending. It makes me feel as if I were a co-author of the show. And I love that.
It would’ve been very interesting, if the show creators had made the second version of this show (the way they intended to make it before the fans’ backlash). I’m not convinced at all that this version would’ve been more satisfying. At least, not for me. And I think the soompi discussion is too focused on the ending and on clues that prove that single point… It’s too narrow.
Speaking of uncertainty, I think we underestimate how incompetent, inept (I can’t think of better words) DH is in handling his personal affairs, and how his “incompetence” amplifies that uncertainty.
Koreans don’t go to shrinks, and DH is a poster boy for people who should.
He told his wife during their confession conversation, that he didn’t how to handle their situation.
I’m positive the same applies to his relationship with JA.
Yes, there was denial. Yes, there was decency. But, at the end of the day, I bet a huge factor is that he just didn’t know what to do.
And he didn’t have anyone to help him to figure it out. JA couldn’t help him with it. However, I’m sure she understood what was going on with him.
And her understanding strengthened her resolve to leave.
She wanted to give him time to figure out what he wanted to do.
About the ending
You know that I believe that DH and JA ended up being in love.
However, it doesn’t bother me at all that some people don’t see DH and JA as romantic partners.
This is where I’m starting to land, too. Even though I do think the clues and story design point in a loveline direction, I think strident-ness from either “camp” is unhelpful. It bothers me when people say, “It would be ridiculous if DH and JA loved each other romanitcally; watch the show again and you’ll see it’s platonic.” But it can be equally unhelpful to take the loveline so seriously that you stop enjoying the show, as you said.
Even though I wish people could see the loveline, and I wish KWS and PHY had been clearer (which I know not everyone feels the need for), my top value now is to just enjoy the show. 🙂
@the_sweetroad
think strident-ness from either “camp” is unhelpful. my top value now is to just enjoy the show.
+100
It seems to me that Chekhov gun concept has been taken to the extreme.
To paraphrase the known saying, “Not everything is about that gun”.
Randomness and lack of logic are allowed. They should be appreciated. They happen in real life too.
Characters in this show have their own personalities and their own life stories.
I don’t want to see every single move or word of pretty much every single character in this show as nothing but evidence that DH and JA are going to end up in bed together.
Actually, even their own words or actions shouldn’t be that narrowly interpreted either. Not every time, anyway.
And we should listen to the creators of the show, when they say that MM is much more than a romantic love story. Because it’s true.
Thinking that they are just trying to hide something from the Korean audience is too simplistic. Intentional or not, the ambiguities and multi-demential relationships have made this show so unique and so relatable.
I hope I don’t sound a bit harsh.😊
And we should listen to the creators of the show, when they say that MM is much more than a romantic love story. Because it’s true.
Absolutely. I’m really starting to appreciate this more in the last couple weeks. Last night I watched Ep 16 again, just to savor and enjoy it. And it is so good, on so many fronts.
To paraphrase the known saying, “Not everything is about that gun”.
I laughed when I read this. I certainly don’t move in any circles where this is a known saying. LOL.
And I agree – randomness and inconsistencies here and there would be normal. The fact that the story is so tight, and does pay off in many, many different ways – and stands up to reasonable, everyday scrutiny – is already a testament to how brilliant it is.
Speaking of uncertainty, I think we underestimate how incompetent, inept (I can’t think of better words) DH is in handling his personal affairs, and how his “incompetence” amplifies that uncertainty.
Koreans don’t go to shrinks, and DH is a poster boy for people who should.
He told his wife during their confession conversation, that he didn’t how to handle their situation.
I’m positive the same applies to his relationship with JA.
Oh, GREAT insight! Dong Hoon doesn’t have it all together. (How many of us are, really?) He’s in several new situations, all at once. A couple of them are pretty traumatic, and honestly he doesn’t know how to handle work politics, the affair, or this strange new girl who’s paying attention to him, and whom he’s starting to notice, too.
@actionscript, good to hear from you here! 😁
Also, from DH’s point of view, JA kissed him simply because she was bored! For DH who apparently finds JA pretty, all these events surely left an imprint on him.
It’s so funny – I always, always forget that JA kissed DH. When I think about their story, because this kiss was literally stolen (as the article that sadiesmith just posted said), I don’t think about it as part of their building attraction. But I agree with you, I imagine the kiss left an imprint on him. How could it not?!
MariaF wrote: Also, imagine a woman telling a man that she kissed him out of boredom, that she just wanted to see if the kiss would make her feel less bored. Turns out, no, she didn’t feel a thing.
How exciting is it for a man to hear that?
This also would have left an imprint on him, for sure. Used to being popular and cool back in the day, with “all the girls liking him” as Do Joon Young put it, JA’s harsh words must have been pretty deflating.
I’m still impressed that even after this kiss escapade, and JA blackmailing him to buy her dinners, that DH still treated her with kindness and respect.
He acknowledged that JA got him, he carried halmeoni upstairs, he saw JA caring for halmeoni, he invited her to the company dinner, she slapped Asst Manager Kim, he was grateful. The way the show wove all these events together, little by little, is also impressive.
I’m still impressed that even after this kiss escapade, and JA blackmailing him to buy her dinners, that DH still treated her with kindness and respect.
I think that at the time DH still thought of her as a kid, who is acting out. He didn’t realize that it was a calculated move on her part.
And he also knew that she was just plain hungry.
Have you noticed how he always let her eat first every time they went to have a meal together (before starting any conversation with her)? He knew that it was probably her first real meal that day.
It was a very interesting time for both of them (and for the viewers).
It was the beginning of the process. DH must have been very confused. She is a kid, and she is a woman. She is rude and mean, and she is kind and loyal. She is an uneducated and inexperienced clerk, and she is very intelligent and observant.
And he also knew that she was just plain hungry.
Have you noticed how he always let her eat first every time they went to have a meal together (before starting any conversation with her)? He knew that it was probably her first real meal that day.
I saw that, too. She always ate ravenously, and being the perceptive guy that he was, he could’t help but notice.
It was the beginning of the process. DH must have been very confused. She is a kid, and she is a woman. She is rude and mean, and she is kind and loyal. She is an uneducated and inexperienced clerk, and she is very intelligent and observant.
Love this. If I can mirror this to JA, in the same way, DH wasn’t who JA expected. He was boring yet overtly kind; he was passive and didn’t speak up for himself, yet he fought for others; he scolded her and thanked her for slapping Mgr Kim; he promised to feign ignorance about her past but completely went to bat for her. He didn’t take things lying down like she would probably have expected him to, when she first started getting to know him.
Very well said about DH! Thank you!
He seems totally inconsistent and contradictory. And human.
Speaking of uncertainty, I think we underestimate how incompetent, inept (I can’t think of better words) DH is in handling his personal affairs, and how his “incompetence” amplifies that uncertainty.
Yes, there was denial. Yes, there was decency. But, at the end of the day, I bet a huge factor is that he just didn’t know what to do.
I’ll add in another factor to DH’s seeming bewilderment and inaction on his personal affairs. And this factor is, from my perspective, one of the larger themes that the show tackled. (Yes, I agree it’s not all DH and JA. 😁)
Many Asian societies are still trapped in the old-school emphasis on collectivism as they grapple with the increasing prevalence of individualism that modernity brings. His conflict of enduring his marriage to preserve the image or expectations of his extended family (mom, siblings) versus pursuing divorce to free himself from misery is exactly a reflection of that conflict. In the Asian society where I live, such group vs individual factors still permeate through most of our most important life decisions, so I can totally relate. The older generations tend to veer towards collectivism, and the younger ones are more comfortable in embracing individualism. DH is at the age that’s caught in the middle of this transition, as reflected in him seemingly not knowing what to do.
It was his monk friend, ironically, that pushed him to embrace individualism: “Make yourself happy first,” “stop thinking you should sacrifice yourself,” and to “be brazen and think about yourself.” And this for me is one of the key messages of the show.
It seems to me that Chekhov gun concept has been taken to the extreme.
I agree here. That’s why I tend to use “easter eggs” to most of the other clues like the movies, etc. Easter eggs are add-ons and not part of the narrative, unlike Chekhov’s Gun. In fact, the only outright Chekhov’s gun for me in the entire show are the scenes where the camera is panning and focusing on the pictures on his work desk and on their living room. It was focused on like more than a dozen times in the show, obviously to draw attention. And the payoff? The obvious change in configuration and content of those photos at the end.
Another part of the ending that’s overshadowed by the what’s next for DH and JA is DH’s career achievements so far. Even before he started his own company, having become a director in a relatively large engineering company, I’d suspect that would make him in the top 5% of Korean society as far as career achievement goes, making him technically a statistical outlier. And now that he’s embarked on his own and it seems his company is doing well, I’d even say he’s on the right path to become at the level of the Chairman 20-30 years down the road. I’ve read some say that this is the Misaeng part of MM.
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Many Asian societies are still trapped in the old-school emphasis on collectivism as they grapple with the increasing prevalence of individualism that modernity brings. His conflict of enduring his marriage to preserve the image or expectations of his extended family (mom, siblings) versus pursuing divorce to free himself from misery is exactly a reflection of that conflict.
This is very interesting. It makes total sense. Thank you.
It was his monk friend, ironically, that pushed him to embrace individualism…
“be brazen and think about yourself.” And this for me is one of the key messages of the show.
I agree. It is.
It’s also interesting to me that a Buddhist monk was a catalyst for DH’s change.
I don’t know if you’ve heard a theory about Catholic Church contributing to rising of individualism in western society.
In early Middle Ages the Roman Catholic Church condemned marriages between relatives, even between distantly related people.
The Church also promoted the idea of marriage by choice instead of arranged marriages.
Before those new rules were introduced, the common practice was life in large, extended families with strong kinship ties, where respect for elders, conformity and obedience were considered virtues.
The new rules produced small, nuclear households, with weak extended family ties and high mobility. And this in turn fostered individualism, non-conformity, analytical and independent thinking.
So, different religions, different methods and motives, of course, but still…
By the way, I don’t think this parallel is intentional. It’s definitely a coincidence. But a very interesting one.
However, in light of this theory, are we to consider DH’s wife a vanguard of modern, revolutionary change, since her dream was to drag DH away from his “old school” way of life, move somewhere else and make him a business owner. Hmm…
And her dream came through, because, like you said, DH became very successful professionally. Although a different woman will enjoy his success…
That’s why I tend to use “easter eggs” to most of the other clues like the movies, etc. Easter eggs are add-ons and not part of the narrative, unlike Chekhov’s Gun.
I’m not sure we have to same understanding of the Chekhov’s Gun concept. I’d appreciate if you elaborated a little about the gun vs Easter eggs (with one or more examples, maybe). I think you wrote about it, but I can’t find that comment.
I thought a little bit more about DH liking JA in the beginning.
I’m convinced that he didn’t.
The CEO told JA that since DH ate with her, he liked her. That, unlike other men, he wouldn’t eat with a person he didn’t like just because he needed something. He was right. DH refused to continue having dinners with JA, even if it meant that the true bribe story could come out.
He was right. DH refused to continue having dinners with JA, even if it meant that the true bribe story could come out.
Good reminder. This was still consistent with what DJY said, and DH did put the kibosh on those dinners once he felt like JA was pushing him around.
I think the next time he went out with her alone was in Ep 6, right? After he had seen how she was with halmeoni, and after she had slapped Mgr Kim. That, then, was the real beginning of “if he eats and drinks with you, he likes you” – he knew her better by then, and he did respect and like her as a person.
You are right. DH invited JA for a drink after she slapped mgr Kim. But the warmer feelings began earlier, when DH saw JA with her grandmother.
I don’t know if you’ve heard a theory about Catholic Church contributing to rising of individualism in western society.
This is very interesting, considering from where I am, there’s still no divorce law (one of the only 2 countries w/o one), due to the powerful influence of the Catholic church.
Going back.. Leaving behind some traditions and old ways of thinking and doing things, and embracing individualism, if that would spell happiness (another key theme of the show – that being happy is the ultimate payback to our loved ones), is exactly the character arc development that DH had to traverse in the story. That for me hints at the possible choices DH would make in the end, to achieve a logical conclusion to his story arc that would also be consistent with the show’s key messages and ideas.
are we to consider DH’s wife a vanguard of modern, revolutionary change
YH is certainly more modern in many ways, as illustrated by that frame shot of their beverage choices (tea vs coffee). And that’s a tendency as well for those with a liberal arts background, like law, as they tend to have more exposure to modern thought, compared to those who took on a more technical route, like civil engineering.
But value systems and character are two different things. And that doesn’t take away their differences like their differing languages of love (as discussed in previous threads), and YH’s possessiveness of wanting DH all for herself. I’ve read that YH was also exhibiting such behavior with DJY, when in ep 1, she was constantly bickering to DJY not returning her calls and texts promptly, despite being aware the illicit nature of their setup makes it harder to do so.
I thought a little bit more about DH liking JA in the beginning. I’m convinced that he didn’t.
I agree that he didn’t. What I meant was let’s say DH needed 20 points to tip over to liking someone. JA throwing the bribe was 3 pts. The kiss was 1 pt. (Even though JA’s explanation was insulting, still she chose him out of the so many other men she could have chosen to kiss out of boredom.) Taking care of granny was 12 pts, slapping Kim was 15 pts. That’s now 30 pts, surpassing his tipping point. This illustration of what I meant is clearer I think. And I agree that DH’s warmer feelings started with the granny incident.
DH must have been very confused. She is a kid, and she is a woman. She is rude and mean, and she is kind and loyal…
Reminds me somehow of that Alanis Morissette song! 😆 I’ll add one more I’ve read.. right off the first scene, she is fragile-looking yet vicious (in killing the ladybug). And also as wonderful were @the_sweetroad’s mirroring of these contradictions to DH.
I’d appreciate if you elaborated a little about the gun vs Easter eggs.
On Chekhov’s Gun and easter eggs, I’ll find a way to reply that would get us out of this deeper & deeper nesting of our posts. The replies to that could get very long. 😅
where I am, there’s still no divorce law
What do people do then? Also, is there a possibility that the law will be changed in the nearest future?
But value systems and character are two different things.
Yes, but value systems influence character and behavior.
We praise SH’s wife for staying in touch with her mother-in-law and other members of SH’s family, despite their marital problems.
But staying in touch was an easy, natural choice for her, because they had similar family/ community values. And that’s why their reconciliation made sense.
In DH and YH family, not only they had different values, but also DH’s behavior put YH in a position, where she felt that she had to constantly compete for his affection.
DH criticized YH for having priorities, but he definitely had his. This created (or exacerbated) her insecurities and possessiveness, which, in turn, affected her behavior with the CEO.
But I’ve been thinking that there’s more to that.
We’ve been trying to explain DH and YH marital problems by differences in their values, her insecurities, his love for his mother and his friends.
These are all valid reasons. But is it also possible that DH just stopped loving YH, even before he found out about the affair? It happens. So what is the chicken and what is the egg in their problems?
Even though JA’s explanation was insulting, still she chose him out of the so many other men she could have chosen to kiss out of boredom.
JA’s decision to kiss DH out of boredom wasn’t the insulting part (in my opinion). Burning passion is not the only reason people kiss.
The insulting, sad part was the reason why she chose him (because he was the most miserable, pathetically looking person there), and the fact that she didn’t feel anything after the kiss.
But he didn’t know about it until after their talk in the conference room. So you are probably right: that kiss (in combination with her throwing away the bribe) definitely rattled him. That’s why he wanted to fire her: to eliminate the temptation.
He followed his brother’s advice.
As their relationship progressed, he couldn’t stay away from her, even if he wanted to…
You are absolutely right: our comments shouldn’t be too long.
Ill try to write shorter, less convoluted posts.
What do people do then? Also, is there a possibility that the law will be changed in the nearest future?
I don’t think so. There are other legal remedies like legal separation and annulment, but the legal requirements to obtain these are usually harder to attain compared to getting divorce in most countries.
The insulting, sad part was the reason why she chose him (because he was the most miserable, pathetically looking person there), and the fact that she didn’t feel anything after the kiss.
True! What’s amusing is that as DH gets to know JA more through the episodes, I’m sure he is still baffled about that kiss, until he’d found out she was working for DJY by the end of ep 14. That’s why when flashbacks of JA played on DH’s mind when he found out his phone was being tapped, I was half-wondering why they didn’t include that kiss scene in the flashback, as that would have been one of the most inexplicable acts of JA in the past.
I was half-wondering why they didn’t include that kiss scene in the flashback
I think it’s because that flashback wasn’t about DH figuring out how JA’d tried to deceive him. The bad things didn’t matter to DH, so the kiss wasn’t important. Therefore, the show creators didn’t include it.
The opposite was important: JA’s loyalty and kindness. DH was remembering how JA used the info she got from listening to help him.
There is another thing I want to add.
DH told JA during their subway ride, that she liked him, because both of them were pitiful. And he honestly believed it then.
But I think that, when he remembered how she ran to him after the “pretty” remark, how she texted him “it’s nothing”, he maybe realized (somewhere deep down), that it wasn’t just pity. It was love.
I was half-wondering why they didn’t include that kiss scene in the flashback,
Dong Hoon forgot Ji An had kissed him, just like I always forget. 🤪😂
But I think that, when he remembered how she ran to him after the “pretty” remark, how she texted him “it’s nothing”, he maybe realized (somewhere deep down), that it wasn’t just pity. It was love.
Agreed! I feel like he was a bit dismissive of her verbalizing her feelings before, in that if she pitied him he didn’t have to take her declarations so seriously.
But now he realized that Ji An had heard him in key moments, and she consistently chose to champion him and use that information for his good (or reach out to him/ run to him). He couldn’t just chalk it all up to pity then. I think if she only pitied him, she wouldn’t have been so deeply engaged.
Just thought of something we talked about earlier – just like DH’s love for JA compelled him, DH realized that JA’s love for him compelled her.
yes because marriage is sacred, it’s condemned by the Church to divorce, and encourage marriage by choice, so people wont married and divorce easily
basically the The Church contribute the most in building western civilization, and its not a theory, its the truth
Many Asian societies are still trapped in the old-school emphasis on collectivism as they grapple with the increasing prevalence of individualism that modernity brings. His conflict of enduring his marriage to preserve the image or expectations of his extended family (mom, siblings) versus pursuing divorce to free himself from misery is exactly a reflection of that conflict.
Great point! And this weight and obligation can be very heavy. Some older couples would rather just stay in an unhappy marriage rather than disappoint or shame their families. I’ve seen quite a few instances of this 🙁
And we’ve seen those kdramas where the in-laws or grandparents lay on the guilt if a couple wants to get a divorce. It’s definitely a thing that your happiness is secondary to family honor and to keeping your children from suffering by growing up with divorced parents. Not many people can withstand all that pressure.
And now that he’s embarked on his own and it seems his company is doing well, I’d even say he’s on the right path to become at the level of the Chairman 20-30 years down the road.
Thanks for this! I was just re-visiting my (very scarce) draft on GMS regarding Chairman Jang, and I was thinking exactly this, that C. Jang is like what Dong Hoon will become, years down the line. They share such similar values, they both have integrity and live with principle, and they have compassion for the underdog.
I haven’t watched Misaeng yet but it’s on the list.
MariaF, I was so curious about the colors of Yoon Hee’s coffee mugs that I rewatched all the coffee scenes I could remember last night :). Stayed up way too late. I’m sure I’ve missed some but here’s some data:
Ep 1, our first look at YH in her love nest with Do Joon Young: she’s drinking coffee out of a white mug.
Ep 5, 7, and 13 – every time her mugs are dark.
Ep 15 – white mug
Ep 16 – white mug in her photo with Ji Seok, as you mentioned
If it weren’t for Ep 1, she would have a dark mug all the way until Ep 15, when DH comes back home from running to the phone booth Ji An was using. When he gets home, YH is drinking from a white mug with flowers, and during their talk in her office – when she is willing to expose the affair for JA’s sake – she’s drinking from it.
So I think there might be something to your observation! I did notice that in Ep 1, she’s wearing dark clothes and the white mug contrasts with them during the overhead, first shot of her. So maybe the producers felt that was better cinematographically. OR they weren’t thinking about mug colors back then 🙂
To be clear:
In the future, these circumstances are different:
These are entirely different circumstances.
In all this, the most insulting thing is that she would believe her lover about her husband seeking revenge on them. The guy even thought of her wellbeing when confronting her lover, taking him to task about never wanting to marry her because he looked down on her background. As for her lover, he asked him to stop seeing her, but apart from that only told him not to mess with him at work when he didn’t deserve it)… even in the episodes where they competed over the promotion, he said something along the lines of not even being sure he wanted to take the time to put him down, as he didn’t deserve even that ounce of his mental energy and power to influence his life.
This, in addition to the bit about his subordinates not following him to his new business, shows how little she really knew him.
Well, considering how well she knew her lover, it’s really no surprise… well enough to know he was somebody willing to hurt her husband, which clearly was not a deal breaker, but obviously not enough to know he would put his career ahead of her.
Yup, agreed. And once she realized how selfish and self-centered he was, she felt like an idiot for having loved him. She was blinded by passion. Their love nest still gives me the heebie jeebies when I see it onscreen 🙂 and I think, like Dong Hoon, “How could you do that?! With him?!”
I was making more of an evaluation about her priorities. Him badmouthing her and lying to her about something relatively trivial (camping) versus him trying to get her husband, someone she had known for years and the father of her child, fired with the help of an accused murderer.
The point was that she would have sided with him had he tried to hurt her husband, but not been duplicitous towards her.
We are talking about someone sleeping with his subordinate’s wife and trying to get him fired for his convenience. That seems to apply to your terms even without the lie about camping, etc. More importantly, this was about hurting someone she had known for years and the father of her children (okay, she was hurting/humiliating/deceiving him as well, but I was making more of a point about her priorities with reference to what it took for her to find him “unsuitable”… him hurting her husband -really, leaving him jobless and destitute, considering the poor bank account we see in the first episode, as well as unable to financially provide for the rest of his family-, who she knew for years and is her child’s father, was not a deal breaker, and ranked below some hurtful words behind her back and a lie about camping).
The point was him trying to leave her husband, that as we saw was in financial straights and needed to financially support the rest of his family, mattered less to her than him lying to her about camping (and let’s throw in for good measure the badmouthing behind her back).
Yes, of course between the two of them the one that saw the guy clearly was Dong Hoon. She admitted to have had reservations on him in university, because he was always the nervous/twitchy type, but that she deluded herself into thinking this was something because he wasn’t that way when he was with her.
My main point here was about her priorities, considering the the things she did know about him, someone that she had had a relationship for a year, namely that he was willing to fire her husband with the help of an accused murderer, were not a deal breaker for her.
In other words, she would have been content to marry scum that would have hurt her husband, but not scum that would lie to her about camping/talk smack behind her back (and by extension proving what he would have otherwise proved by not marrying her due to her poor family background). The former was the only scum that prompted her feeling of disgust at having liked him.
That’s what I found farcical/sad about their discussion about him truly doing that for the sake of her divorce/their marriage (pretending to love her, like on the rooftop scene) or not. As if this would have made anything better (the sad part is, to her it would have evidently made a difference, which it shouldn’t have… then again, if she didn’t think that way, probably she would have never cheated on her husband for a year in the first place). My point was the self absorbed thinking and effed up priorities. We are talking about hurting someone that she knew for years, the father of her child, not being a deal breaker. That meant less to her than her lover badmouthing/lying to her.
By the way, the rooftop scene is the first one where she mentions to her lover feeling guilty also for betraying Dong Hoon in and of itself, not only for betraying him with the wrong person (or wrong type of scum -scum that would deceive her, rather than “simply” hurt her husband/her child’s father-).
To be honest, that phrase carried many meanings. Stopping at “how could you do that”, how could she betray her husband. Then the “with him”… it was both because he was his junior boss was his enemy, and because he truly felt that he was scum. As he pointed our, did she really think he would marry her?
The “how could you do that” is the bit an which I stop: her husband is not a wife beating drunk, she knows he is a good person (in the first episodes she tells her lover that he is kind and reliable, if a bit lonesome). The fact that she does that with someone more or less good (she was a very poor judge of character in this case) is really besides the point (though choosing her husband’s evil junior boss, his worst enemy, was indeed one of the most humiliating choices she could make… on the other hand it was also good, narrative wise, that he was so obviously scummy that he had to have a narrative arc where he was taken down, he couldn’t just be ignored; that gave her the chance to participate actively which made for good plot development).
I must say that if it was not a scenario where she cheated, and he was not the person he was, the general scenario where an older woman (divorced rather than cheating) rediscovers love with a younger, equally ambitious man is a nice one that you don’t see too often. Secret Love Affair is the one drama that comes to mind, and unfortunately even there it’s a case of cheating. Would be nice to have an example of normal, non toxic relationship.
Whoa. Fans of My Mister take note: You have to watch the Japanese film “Drive My Car,” which is finally out of theaters and streaming on HBO Max.
It’s a totally different story from MM. And yet . . . it’s very similar in many ways. Including being truly excellent. It’s based on a short story by Haruki Murakami, if you’ve read any of his novels.
Don’t be put off by the three-hour running time. We actually spread it out over two nights, but for other reasons.
As you may have heard, it’s been nominated for Best Picture at this year’s Academy Awards — as in the premier award in the big tent, not one of the foreign film categories.
There are a couple of Korean actors in it, as well as one from Taiwan, each speaking their native language throughout. So if you’re a polyglot or a lover of polyglots, all the more reason to watch!
Thanks @merij1! I hadn’t heard of it yet, but good to know it’s been nominated for an Oscar and that it’s similar to MM. Will try to see if it’s playing anywhere I have access.
@the_sweetroad – Try HBO Max!
Besides those languages and English, one of the actresses speaks only in Korean Sign Language. She can hear others but is mute.
Her dramatic signing steals every scene she’s in.
However, the My Mister-like connection is between the older lead actor and his young female chauffeur. So good.
Thanks for the tip merij1! I missed this comment until now.
@merij, did you see Drive My Car won Best International Picture at the Oscars? It’s now firmly on my list and I look forward to watching it when I can!
Thank you @merij1. I appreciate the suggestion.
It took me 3 more weeks that you guys but I have finally finished watching the show! And what a great show it was. Thanks to everyone for suggesting it and picking it for a group watch. This is a show I will remember of very fondly. Thank you!
I know that we are done with MM. But I’d like to make the last couple of points that I think I haven’t made before.
We all know that DH is a good son, brother, friend, boss, etc. He fulfills his duties. But it’s hard on him. It’s a burden. For example, he could barely hold it together after that scene with the building owner, who’d made his older brother kneel.
We see non of this, when it comes to JA. There is no sense of obligation. It feels like an involuntary reaction.
Just one look at DH’s face on his way to the loan shark would tell us that. There were no doubts, no weariness. He was just mad as hell.
DH’s reaction was the same, when he defended JA during and after the interview (when he almost went to the director’s office). And it was the same, when he beat up the CEO , or when he was looking for JA after she disappeared.
Also, I noticed the way DH held his cell phone after he’d learned that JA could hear him. He couldn’t allow himself to touch her, but he held that phone, as if it were the most precious thing in the world.
Thank you for listening.
Well-said, Maria! I think this is where Dong Hoon’s decency and integrity really shine through, when it comes to the events you mentioned above. To him, it was right to confront Kwang Il, to defend Ji An during his interview and after hers, and to look for her (especially since he wanted to reassure her that it was OK, she didn’t have to hide anymore). All his actions flowed from a sense of confidence that he was doing the right thing, for the good of Ji An. And you’re right – he wasn’t weary or tired, but he was compelled by an inner drive to fight for her (in his confrontations) and give her rest (in looking for her). When it came to Ji An, Dong Hoon was completely, fully engaged. I loved how he said in Ep 10 after he beat up Kwang Il, “It feels like every cell in my body has woken up.”
Your point about how weary he was when he confronted the building owner is a good one – it would be interesting to explore even further what the difference was for DH between fighting for someone like Sang Hoon, and fighting for Ji An.
Related to the events you cited here, something that has struck me recently is how much Dong Hoon and Ji An used the resources at their disposal to act for the good of each other. For example, Ji An used her street smarts and knowledge of Kwang Il to get Dong Hoon’s wallet back. She also matched Do Joon Young in cleverness and was able to circumvent his schemes. And she was able to perceive the things DH needed to hear, and say them to him. (Of course, much of that was because of the wiretapping…but she still had to perceive them and actually say them.)
On the other hand, Dong Hoon offered to pay her debt, figured out that halmeoni was eligible for social services, and brought Ji An to Jung Hee’s for refuge. He also involved his attorney wife to keep Ji An out of jail.
And they both articulated themselves so well in their respective interviews with the Directors.
They each had different, contrasting gifts, skills, and resources to offer the other. Ji An mainly used her inner resources to encourage Dong Hoon and protect him from Kwang Il and Do Joon Young. Dong Hoon used his knowledge of the world, and his connections, to help Ji An find stability in life and a larger neighborhood family to be a part of.
Great insight! I never looked at it that way before.. that his doing things for his family looked like an obligation or even a burden for him, but not the things he did for Ji An. Goes to show he is just human, after all.
@the_sweetroad, I won’t put it all on DH’s decency and integrity with the things he did for Ji An. I’d lean more towards “he was in it before he knew it,” an insight which I also got from your post. ☺
I doubt he’d show that level of engagement if it’s any other colleague that was in Ji An’s place, like if it was Asst. Manager Kim or the office secretary Chae Ryung. He’d extend a helping hand here and there for sure, but not to the level of paying off their debt or fighting their loan sharks. After the ladybug incident in the office, he approached JA to strike some small talk, asking her what was the worst she has killed. He could have approached Chae Ryung instead to ask her what else freaked her out aside from ladybugs, but he didn’t.
Ji An could be the new girl in the office, that’s why. But after a few weeks, he was still approaching her in the pantry to ask petty stuff like what her name meant, and again not to Chae Ryung. And that’s after JA sexually assaulted him at the end of ep 3. 😅
Very good points! You’re absolutely right….DH approaching Chae Ryung never happened (that would have been a different story altogether!). Your comment reminds me that DH is known to be very shy around women after all. So there was just something about JA that brought out his interest, protective nature, and willingness to go to great lengths for her, without feeling weary about it. His love for her compelled him, however we define that love.
Interesting point, everyone! I also lean towards “he was in it before he knew
it”. I just finished Just between lovers, and this
thread reminds me of
something in the last episode. The main leads
were reminiscing about one night early in the show when she slept on his
shoulder on the sea shore. And she said I didn’t know you liked me then.
And the ML responded Are you dumb? To a woman I don t even like
what man would lend his shoulder all night? Seems to me PDH did many more difficult things
for JA than just lending his shoulder 🙂
I also remember one scene in One spring night. The FL just recently met the ML and found out that he was living in the same building as her best friend. Although she has a long standing boyfriend who wanted to marry her, is asking her friend about the new guy:
FL: Do you know the neighbor upstairs?
Her friend: A woman around my age, a married couple and… I don’t know. Why do you ask?
FL: I just saw someone heading upstairs. It was a young guy. Not bad looking.
Her friend: How handsome is he?
FL: I only saw a glimpse of him. Have you seen the guy who lives with his girlfriend?
Her friend: Was he that handsome? Do you want me to check? But, you know, being curious about someone is an important sign. Your mind keeps wondering back to him. It means you’re interested. If you weren’t you wouldn’t care about his whereabouts. Just know this though… that qualifies as cheating too.
In the light of the two quotes, I think that it is probable that something was going on in PDH heart, and that the audience tends to be more indulgent towards him, but if you apply general k-drama rules…
I agree with what you were hinting on. I for one am on the belief that DH has been bordering on emotional cheating more than he would acknowledge. (Most of the characters in MM are beautiful people despite their flaws and imperfections, DH included.) He allowed himself to start having friendly dinners/drinks with JA starting on the latter part of ep 6, after finding out YH’s affair at the start of ep 6. (The three dinners he had with JA in the first 3 episodes are practically on official business, as he was just giving in to JA’s demands.)
So it seemed finding out about YH’s cheating have pushed DH’s subconscious mind to allow him that space to not feel uncomfortable in having dinners with JA, which he categorically said he was (uncomfortable) during their ep 3 dinner.
And the show itself provided us the “quotes.” The show has consistently used a third person to validate the situation for us in many instances. And in this instance, it was Joon Young, when he told JA that “DH eating and drinking with you means he likes you.” These dinners with JA were definitely one of those that started the “he was in before he knew it” process for DH.
For me, the turning point was when DH found out about JA slapping his subordinate for badmouthing him at the company dinner.
They went to a bar afterwards. And DH told JA, that he felt as if she knew everything about him. Even without him saying a word.
Also, DH promised JA that if he’d hear anything bad about her, he’d ignore it. And asked her to do the same for him.
To me it sounded as if they made a commitment to each other.
After that their time together (dinners, walks home) became really meaningful.
An interesting thought. I didn’t see these dinners that way (emotional cheating). I saw them more of an act of desperation, at least in the beginning.
DH has troubles at work. He just discovered his wife’s betrayal. He obviously can’t go to his extended family or friends for any support.
DH is drowning (figuratively speaking). So he clings to JA, because she is the one who defended him and, as DH put it to his younger brother, she “knows” him.
By the way, later on, when they are in a hospital, DH tells JA “I know you”. Full circle.
The way you’d single out the scenes and accurately depict their significance are always a joy to read! (Or all your thoughts for that matter!) On the other hand I have a lazy habit of tying up and just encapsulating multiple scenes and events into sweeping statements, thus rendering that statement in varying degrees of accuracy when applied individually to each.
And while we were on this topic, it just dawned on me now that on the dinners of DH and JA, if it was JA who requested it either verbally or through text, the show will explicitly show it. Such were the case in ep 1, 2, 3 (twice in ep 3 but the 2nd one was cut short when DH walked out), twice in ep 7 (the 2nd one JA requested they sit down for one more drink), the goodbye dinner in ep 16 and the one at the final scene. On two occasions, it was not explicitly shown who requested them, the one in ep 6 and the one at the end of ep 12. I would presume it was DH given the context that he has something to thank JA for — for slapping Asst. Manager Kim (ep 6) and for painting him in a good light during the panel interview (ep 12). All throughout it was only shown once where DH explicitly requested for dinner to thank her (for throwing the bribe money), and that was in ep 2 through text but that request was rejected by JA as she had to return the phone to JY that night. So just interesting to notice that the show avoided showing DH explicitly requesting for any dinner that pushed through.
Interesting. I’ve wondered what their arrangement was re those dinners.
What we know for sure is that sometimes JA asked DH to buy her food, and sometimes DH suggested it.
But what about other times?
Right before that scene, when JA confessed to DH on the street, she’d seen him sitting in that bar, clearly waiting for her (she didn’t go in because of that private investigator). Also, a few episodes earlier, DH asked the bartender, if JA had stopped by (the pretty looking girl).
So, is that how it worked: he’d go to the bar and wait there, hoping she’d stopped by?
So, is that how it worked: he’d go to the bar and wait there, hoping she’d stopped by?
Good point! So now that you mentioned it, I now assume during their drinking session in ep 6, they most probably made or hinted on such an arrangement. Because at the tail end of ep 7, he was already at the bar waiting. And I’m not sure if JA was really on her way to the bar and just ran faster when she heard DH called her pretty. As the show progressed, we’d discover they have had established other routines as well like walking home together.
But going back to my point.. Aside from one scene in ep 2, the show has never explicitly shown DH texting or verbally inviting JA directly for dinner or drinks. Unlike how JA’s request thru text or verbal were all made explicit.
And moving on to a tangential topic, we discussed how DH has restrained his growing feelings for JA as he was still married. But isn’t JA, who fully knows DH is a married man, also trudging on the boundaries of right & wrong by openly declaring her love for DH?
That’s why for me when DH found out about the affair, and upon learning further that she knew about the bribe and did nothing, he subconsciously already allowed himself some space to move forward, despite being stuck still in the “freeze” response mode in his conscious mind. JA probably is hoping for the same as well, that divorce is inevitable.
And moving on to a tangential topic, we discussed how DH has restrained his growing feelings for JA as he was still married. But isn’t JA, who fully knows DH is a married man, also trudging on the boundaries of right & wrong by openly declaring her love for DH?
This is a great point! Just musing out loud… Ji An in Ep 7 was still trying to get Yoon Hee to come to her senses and go back to DH. However, it was only after Ep 9, when JA and YH met at the Minette and JA heard YH say stuff like, “Whether or not we stay together is not your concern…[DH] can get fired. Just let them fight it out,” that she realized that YH really didn’t care if DH kept his job or not. This may have cemented for her that their marriage was not doing too well. So by Ep 10, when she made her first open confession to DH, JA may not have respected those boundaries as much as she probably might have if she thought YH would treat DH well.
I disagree with this point. She was willing to save his marriage not for his wife’s sake (who she didn’t know and didn’t care about), but for Dong Hoon’s sake.
Ji An has always been very honest with her feelings for Dong Hoon, as far as I can remember. I don’t think that at any point in time did she think that Dong Hoon’s wife deserved him: knowing what she did since the beginning, she had placed in the “unworthy of respect” box and basically concluded she had no right to receive loyalty she wasn’t willing to give.
I think that she would have found the notion of her not expressing her feelings freely in order to spare Dong Hoon’s adulterous wife’s completely crazy and ludicrous. I certainly do.
I think, moreover, than her statement on the rooftop was completely cogent and logical: you have no right to expect/pretend something you are not willing to give in return, and in her case, to paraphrase Ji An’s words she had done much worse, if she had any shame she would realize she has no leg to stand on, no right to complain.
Here is another long post.
Honestly, I can’t decide whether DH subconsciously allowed himself some space to move forward, after finding out about his wife’s affair. He was planning on staying with her, so…
DH didn’t “allow” himself much then (subconsciously or not), and the words “move forward” just don’t sound right, when considering his behavior at the time.
But DH definitely didn’t stop himself from meeting with JA after work and developing a deep emotional bond with her, however he rationalized/justified it.
My experience with extramarital relationships (platonic or not) in Korean dramas is limited to the two shows: “Secret love affair “ and MM.
The younger unmarried characters in these shows couldn’t be more different: highly moral and naive SJ in SLA vs JA, who is a survivalist with a very shady moral code.
Nevertheless, both of them went after subjects of their desire, so to speak, with no reservations whatsoever. Is it considered normal?
Actually, SJ’s behavior was worse. At least JA made an effort to bring DH and his wife together, and she knew that that their marriage was not a happy one.
I think that JA was so thirsty for a human emotional connection, understanding and acceptance, that she just ignored the fact that DH was married. And having that shady moral code was very helpful, for sure.
Also, being honest about her feelings is a natural thing for JA. We never see her pretending to be someone she is not. Except maybe when she was deceiving the CEO.
Thanks @the_sweetroad and @MariaF, combining the details you both put forward have made the entire picture so much clearer. I personally don’t think dwelling on the morality of what DH and JA were doing is the point of the show, that is why they skirted the issue altogether. (And I think that’s my answer as to why they also avoided showing directly DH requesting JA to meet for dinner.) In the same manner the age gap issue was never brought up within the show as well.
I have additional musings.. feel free to chime in or not, as I don’t think there are right or wrong answers:
1. Should DH be happily married (though that would be a different drama altogether), and all circumstances between him and JA in the first few episodes remained the same (they still live in the same neighborhood, JA is still hired by JY to fire DH just for political reasons, she still needs help with her grandma, etc.), do you think the same level of bond and connection would have developed between DH and JA?
2. If you are YH and again happily married to DH, would you have allowed DH to develop such a deep bond and chemistry (even if it’s platonic) with another woman?
We love MM so much we’re diving into the hypothetical now! 🙂
#2 – No. 🙂
Part of the reason DH and JA developed such a deep bond was because of how much time they spent together, time that DH would have (hopefully) been spending with YH if they had had a happy marriage. If my husband had to walk a young female colleague home a couple times, no problem. But if dinners and walking home together became a regular thing it would be strange to me. And, I would happily be involved with taking halmeoni to the nursing home and making sure my husband’s colleague (who needed help) got some help. Ideally, he and I would be talking about this stuff, and partnering together to do these things, even if only he ended up being the one to take JA and halmeoni to the nursing home.
If we think about it, DH was really on his own, without any real “partnership” with YH – which meant he could invest his time where he wanted to independent of YH, AND he hungered for emotional connection outside of YH. In other words, the fact that DH looked to JA for conversation and emotional support was because he wasn’t getting any at home (conversation and emotional support, that is). 🙂
#1 – This hypothetical question feels more nuanced. I get stuck on thinking that the reason JA offered to help DJY fire DH was because she saw that DJY and DH were both getting calls from the same phone number (YH’s) so she knew why DJY was trying to fire DH. And DJY and YH had a plan: “First let DH get fired, then get a divorce.”
So if DH and YH were happily married and DJY wasn’t getting in the middle of their marriage, would DJY still have been urgently trying to fire DH? I don’t know. But let’s say yes, and let’s say JA was still wiretapping him, and getting access to DH in a way that only YH should have been getting. Even if she ended up saying “Fighting!” to him and helping him with work, i.e. through his interview, I think DH’s need for support and conversation would still have been less if he could have turned to YH for those things.
What do you think?
Well, regarding 2) I would think it would be a matter of trust, and would depend on the person. Some would follow the “Mike Pence Rule”, others would find that ridiculous and overly conservative.
My perspective is that one of the women that knew him better, like his female friends he went to search the monk with, were perfectly comfortable with trusting him with Ji An, knowing he wouldn’t do anything, and she was absolutely correct (a hug is the most we got).
now we are writing a drama on the drama MM. just saying. so to entertain actionscript, here are my answers to your two questions.
question 1. dh would still try to help ja, but in a different manner. the interaction between them would be much more distant, as it would not have had the time and opportunity to “escalate” to such a depth. also, he would have been getting advise and support from his attorney wife (that of course if they would have been close)., since in your drama dh is happily married.
question number 2. it would require a very free spirit, open, complete trusting woman to go along with it. there can not be found a woman like this in korea at present time (seems). so the answer would be NO.
That was a great funny reply!
I agree that it would be a matter of perspective (Mike Pence Rule vs more open/trusting attitude). However, I remember the female friend he went to look for the monk with and her completely unconcerned attitude trusting him with Ji An, knowing he would not do anything -and she was correct in that respect, given that the hug they share before their separation is the most physical contact they got-. I feel if she was his wife she would have been comfortable with it.
Oooh, another hypothetical just came to mind. What if halmeoni hadn’t passed away when she did? Sang Hoon wouldn’t have had the chance to help out JA, DH would probably still be avoiding Jung Hee’s bar, and JA would have wanted to be close to her so she probably wouldn’t have gone to Busan. Hmm….. 🙂
Thanks @the_sweetroad and Eda for your answers! I share the same views – that the bond between DH and JA won’t develop to such a deep level had DH and YH’s marriage been ok. And if I am YH, no way will I allow my partner to drift towards another person on that level of depth.
Regarding halmeoni, yes I actually thought that plot-wise, having her pass away was necessary and convenient for a lot of things to happen in the story the way they did – like Song Hoon’s redemption and JA’s leaving for Busan as you cited. The moment she bequeathed JA to DH by writing that note to DH in ep 10 saying she can breathe her last breath in peace, I knew she’d be a goner. 😅
😇Oh dear. But I had that same thought! 🙂
Yes, in the end halmeoni entrusted Ji An to Dong Hoon since she could see he was kind to JA and taking care of her in very practical ways. I have no idea if halmeoni knew DH was married, or if she spotted anything “more” between JA and DH…but she was at peace enough with the way DH was caring for JA that she didn’t hang on very long. (After all, she looked so healthy at the last nursing home visit!) Previous to meeting Dong Hoon, I would imagine halmeoni would have been very worried about JA being left all alone if she died.
I wouldn’t put it like that. She did what she did for Dong Hoon’s sake, not for his wife, who she correctly looked down on for having chosen scum over someone she liked and admired.
I mean, as she correctly pointed out on the rooftop, his adulterous wife had no right to complain, and would not even try, if she had any shame left at all. She had broken their bond, and was not willing to be loyal to him, so she has no right to expect any loyalty in return (he is, though, not even embracing Ji An until the very last episode).
But I want to stress the idea that Ji An, as per her completely cogent and correct statement on the roof, didn’t think that the adulterous wife was owed anything. and would have felt that the very idea of denying her feelings for Dong Hoon just because it might hurt his adulterous wife’s would be crazy and completely ludicrous. I certanly do.
She made an effort to stop her cheating because it caused Dong Hoon pain. She was clearly agnostic about whether they stayed together or not (and if Dong Hoon didn’t intend to, she certainly wouldn’t have objected)… Actually, scratch that, that’s not quite true: she was jealous of her and didn’t like her, so she probably wouldn’t have felt sorry at all at having them divorce, if Dong Hoon’s pain was not a factor.
In all this, I think we can safely claim that, from the rooftop scene, she didn’t feel the wife was owed any consideration with regards to her rights to have Dong Hoon be loyal to her. The fact that he was does not meant that she deserved it or she was entitled to it. She broke their bond, and there is no reason to give loyalty to someone unwilling to be loyal in return. And I agree with Ji An on this.
Again, we are discussing about something that never progressed past a hugh (and even than only in the last episode). His female friend told that they went all around the country sleeping in close proximity and the situation never turned sexual. The guy had utmost self control in that respect (not in all respects, as the fight with the son of the guy she killed showed).
Now that they are all adults, if he clarifies him status (it’s not clear to me where he stands in relations to his wife) I see absolutely nothing wrong in anything that needs to develop developing. Not that I think he ever owed his wife any consideration in this regard, after discovering the affair. I share Ji An’s opinion 100% here. But we know that Dong Hoon would have never done anything inappropriate at the time, and in fact didn’t.
Not at all. His wife didn’t show him any loyalty, and therefore didn’t deserve any. She fully knows what she is doing and is disgusted by it, and frankly dislikes her. Remember that, however, she was the one that intervened to basically save her relationship by revealing the truth about her lover.
I personally think that she has zero reasons to feel shame or think she has done something wrong with regards to the wife. The latter has given up any right to complain when she betrayed him with his worst enemy, as Ji An correctly tells her to her face on the rooftop. I completely agree. The wife broke the bond, and has no right to demand a loyalty she wasn’t willing to give.
Ji An despises her, and the idea of not being honest with her feelings for fear of hurting the adulterous wife’s sensibilities would have seemed ludicrous to her (it certainly does seem that way to me).
Correction: the request of DH in ep 2 was made verbally and not through text.
I basically agree with this point about them starting out as a way to grasp at straws. Regarding anything sexual, he was always very self aware and paid attention at being appropriate. He doesn’t even hug her until the last episode. Of course, if they are free and adults, they can do whatever they want.
Absolutely disagree with the use of the word “emotional cheating” here. Besides the fact that it is a very fuzzy concept (:irony: what is the difference between emotional cheating and having a platonic friend? Having a jealous or possessive boyfriend/girlfriend?), he never did anything he should be ashamed of. He kept it strictly professional in terms of their interaction, and was always very controlled in his behavior.
I don’t like the use of the term because it makes it seem like what they had between them was cheap or dirty, or as if they were doing something wrong (not that his wife would have had anything to complain, given what she was up to, and not that I think that, having broken this bond herself, she was owed any loyalty, to the point where I wouldn’t even use the term cheating in this case).
They developed a friendship, and the show was always fuzzy on the boundaries. I think that his wife definitely didn’t think Ji An was interested in him only as a friend. But he didn’t give her more than than during the show, because of their position. Now they are both free (actually, I am unsure about his status, but he could be free if he wanted and they signed the papers), and they could explore what they will if they wanted. Or not, the ending is fuzzy like that.
I mean to clarify this: not that I think that anything romantic happening between the two would be cheat and dirty, on the contrary, I just didn’t like the implication of “cheating” that this term implied, as if he was doing something he shouldn’t have done. She was basically his healing grace in that period, and he shouldn’t have any guilt attached to following his advice (not that I think his wife deserved any loyalty, since she wasn’t willing to show any herself).
“very controlled in his behavior” -> I intend with this anything about sex (they don’t even hug until the last episode), certainly not all his behavior was controlled, for example beating up the son of the guy she killed was certainly not controlled behavior.
Not that it needs to stay that way, if they are adult and unattached. But the show left it ambiguous to us for a reason.
Hello matrice, could you please check your email. Thank you.
I mean, I will take his female friends’ word for it and label him completely “safe”. Rationally speaking he had female friends he interacted with closely, for example the female friend in question was the girl they run around all over the place looking for a monk. He was always completely appropriate.
With Ji An, he was always completely appropriate from a sexual standpoint (certainly he could be savage in other respect, such as getting into a fight with the son of the man she killed). I mean, he does not even hug her until the last episode. In terms of him turning to her for comfort, etc, and not his primary partner, well, given the situation I think it would be pretty self explanatory. I just feel wrong labeling, tarnishing such a beautiful bond with the word “cheating”.
I must say, though, that MM is a more realistic and gritty drama than the regular kdrama, so I wouldn’t say that I disagree with the “head in the gutter” interpretation of his actions as indecent:
I mean, I don’t think that these hyper conservative and quite frankly silly takes would fit in the gritty and realistic universe of the drama. I don’t like how they pretend to read the other persons’ mind and read things into what could be perfectly innocent gestures.
I think that given how gritty/realistic MM was, I will adjust my bar to expect something more mature than this “hand holding is basically sex” approach. And we see in the drama than he does much more intimate thing that are not sexual in nature at all, for example with the female friend they went to search for the monk and sleep in close proximity, but nothing of that nature develops, and she is perfectly comfortable trusting him with Ji An because she knows nothing would happen (the evil boss also seems pretty convinced of her inability to get him into an affair).
I agree that DH was definitely in before he knew it. But I’m not sure those two conversations are indicative of that.
I think that the most important part of their first conversation was not the question, but the answer.
If you remember, JA told DH that she’d killed a human. At the time we all thought (including DH), that she was just trying to end the small talk.
Only later we realized that JA was telling the truth. And that it was not a random answer. It demonstrated her general approach to life: tell the truth, don’t hide.
When DH asked JA about her name, he was indeed a bit curious about her. But that was after he saw JA taking care of her paralyzed grandmother. I think that at that point he saw her as just a kid, who needs help.
@the_sweetroad:
it would be interesting to explore even further what the difference was for DH between fighting for someone like Sang Hoon, and fighting for Ji An.
Your question brought the ‘fight-or-flight-or-freeze response to a threat’ to my mind.
DH was obviously a person with the ‘freeze’ approach to life: see nothing, pretend that nothing happened, etc.
He had to adopt a’ fight’ persona in order to confront the building owner. And it was very hard on him.
I think that JA’s presence somehow transformed DH into a “fight” type of person.
Yes I definitely agree those two small talk incidents are not yet indicative of DH being “in” already, in the same vein you’ve reminded me in past threads that the ep 1 “nape-stare” at the train is not yet what it is. Haha! Poor choice of examples on my part. 😅 What I really meant was that DH definitely finds JA interesting and attractive, in the manner that when we meet new people in real life, one of the opposite sex, our subconscious immediately classifies them as either attractive or not. JA is definitely classified as attractive by DH’s subconscious right from the very beginning, which is an important component for any further interest and attraction to build on later. And those small talks can be indicative of that, but yes, definitely not “in” yet in any way for sure.
And again very insightful in applying the fight-flight-freeze responses to describe DH’s general approach to conflicts! And that framework provided an accurate depiction of how he changed when JA came along.
I mean, people can find others attractive without anything sexual/relationship wise developing. She was objectively attractive, to anyone with eyes.
i thought we are done with MM, but i guess we can not let it go yet.
so…I doubt he’d show that level of engagement if it’s any other colleague that was in Ji An’s place, like if it was Asst. Manager Kim or the office secretary Chae Ryung. imagine you are walking in a park, there is a dog on a leash, looks like well fed, well taken care of, happy. and then you see a dirty, bloody, hungry, miserable puppy, on the side, leaning on a tree, clinging to life. will your sympathy or even desire to help in some way, or even pick it up and bring it home, will it go to the happy dog or the miserable? this is the difference between ja and chae ryung or manger kim. it is in us (well, most of us) as humans to identify with suffering of others, being an animal or even more so another human and i believe it is fundamental in us. dh being by nature more compassionate than a lot of other people, is intuitively drawn to this “pitiful child”. and since she happens to be in his “park, under his tree” – he can not resist the urge to help her. and of course he’s curious about her exact condition, which he tries to examine, so that it will be more clear to him how he can help her. that is the starting point.
as the interactions between them continue and grow – it is being transformed, as usually happens with relationships (no matter what kind), and slowly blossoms into something deep, meaningful and most importantly fulfilling for both of them, although in different ways. the growth itself is mostly organic, thus adding a distinct quality, unlike any other relationship and by that being so attractive, almost enchanting for all of us.
as it has been suggested here that we should look at it as a “korean drama” with it’s own laws and specifications, rather than just life examples. so dh, being a character in such a korean drama, follows the insights of this korean society (that this and all other dramas attempt to portray and deal with) is limited by its brutal conservatism (which we can not disregard), it’s crippling societal perceptions – and in his case it’s an integral part of his existence as a korean man. so if we take it from this perspective, as much as we would like to see him melting into a romantic who lost his head without even noticing it, in my opinion, this is just a very very remote probability. i know i am in the minority on that, but after reading all your pros and cons, i am still staying with my initial assessment of this issue. sorry.
i thought we are done with MM, but i guess we can not let it go yet.
Will we ever be done with MM?😊
dh being by nature more compassionate than a lot of other people, is intuitively drawn to this “pitiful child”.
This is a totally valid point. JA’s misfortunes definitely was the first thing that triggered DH’s compassion (after that vouchers-related business got sorted).
We need to compare apples to apples.
So, the real question is whether DH would be behaving the same way towards, let’s say, Mr. Kim, if Mr. Kim were in a difficult situation.
I’ll use examples that we discussed before. Would DH be standing outside the bar in the evening, hoping to get a glimpse of Mr. Kim passing by? Would DH demand the slippers from him? Or would he be singing a song about lost love?
Re Korean drama rules.
Eda, if you are referring to my earlier comment, I think there’s been a misunderstanding.
“brutal conservatism (which we can not disregard), it’s crippling societal perceptions” is actually what I call ‘real life.’
What I meant was that, when we watch a tv show, we have to follow and believe the clues that show’s creators leave for us, not the societal rules or laws of gravity. So, if the show suggests that the main character came from a distant star, we better accept it.
Of course, this is an extreme example. In MM, clues are subtle and open to interpretation. But they can’t be ignored just because we want the main character to remain ‘a decent person’, so to speak. I’m using quotation marks here, because, in my opinion, not falling for JA is not what makes DH a decent person. But you already know my views.
I might be wrong. And we all might be overthinking it. I wish we could read the writer’s and director’s minds, because they would never tell.
I wish we could read the writer’s and director’s minds, because they would never tell.
I believe in easter eggs, perhaps being accustomed to Hollywood movies were special scenes or objects are often planted by the director to provide a clue to what’s on his/her mind.
I’ve been harping on this idea before, but just the other day everything came together – that the entire 65-second movie clip of Yu Ra shown in ep 16 was a metaphor for Ji An’s life and journey in MM. I believe it is an easter egg deliberately put in there by the director, and knowing his style and his reputation, he won’t insert garbage in his shows.
I’ve laid down my quick analysis here:
https://forums.soompi.com/topic/408082-drama-2018-my-mister-%EB%82%98%EC%9D%98-%EC%95%84%EC%A0%80%EC%94%A8-best-drama-at-2019-55th-baeksang-arts-awards/?do=findComment&comment=22304350
Will we ever be done with MM?😊 GOD HELP US!
So, the real question is whether DH would be behaving the same way towards, let’s say, Mr. Kim, if Mr. Kim were in a difficult situation. totally. i am convinced that he would extend a helping hand, no matter who it might be (i believe he was carrying ja’s grandmother on his back, buying pastries for her, coming up with a solution to a nursing home for her, etc. not just to help ja, to impress ja, to sweep ja off her feet, – but to extend a helping hand to an older, incapacitated, poor person. do you think for a minute that if this grandmother would have been mr.kim’s granny in the same situation, he would NOT have helped out?
would he buy mr. kim dinner and drinks, if mr.kim would have been in a miserable situation, collecting coffee packets for dinner at home, being an orphan with a sick granny at home alone – wouldn’t he buy him dinner if asked? i believe he would.
the slippers were a present to dh from ja for providing most helpful information to relocate granny to a nursing home. i believe anybody would be grateful and buy dh a present. would it be slippers? not necessarily, but it would have been a present. and if mr. kim would have taken back his present because of some incident, misunderstanding between them, i think dh’s reaction would have been similar. would he describe him to the little restaurant owner as “pretty”? noooo. but he would find another description for him, like “this handsome young man” or “this poorly dressed young man” or whatever, appropriate for a description. would he sing a “love song? i do not think, but i did not interpret that song as a love message, but as a “missing” message. and if he would have been taking care and helping mr. kim as he did with ja, he would definitely miss him. and i agree, with ja there was probably more emotions involved than would have been with any other person (chemistry also plays a role here). in reality, when we help another person or animal due to some strenuous situation, especially with time, the connection becomes much more potent. and that is another side of the development of ja’s and dh’s friendship. so maria, these are my two apples.
Eda, if you are referring to my earlier comment, I think there’s been a misunderstanding. what do you mean? i do not exactly understand. what’s the misunderstanding – can you please explain.
“brutal conservatism (which we can not disregard), it’s crippling societal perceptions” is actually what I call ‘real life.’ – maria, i learned about this conservatism and those societal perceptions only from the korean dramas, i was completely clueless about what was happening in korea . and those dramas, from what i understand, are reflections (even if less accurate, but still valuable and helpful) drawn from korean life itself (what you call “real life”), whether it is historical or modern days. after all, it is quite different in europe, or usa, or canada, or russia… or even china (it seems to me). but … it is all based on LIFE on earth, even if the drama is about planet la-la. as long as there are humans, they deal with the same emotional make ups and so on. so a drama IS life on screen.
and if the writers and directors would have considered it necessary to explain the content of their minds, they would not be shy to make it clear to us. i believe that they believe that we have enough intelligence to interpret it by ourselves, each one with his/hers individual perception. and that’s were we are with this.
Eda,
Thank you for continuing this discussion, although I suspect that we’ll have to agree to disagree in the end.
Would DH buy food for mr. Kim or help his grandmother?
Of course. Absolutely.
But would he ever describe Mr. Kim to the bartender as ‘a handsome man’? No way.
Also, it’s important to remember how other people in the office saw JA. Unkept hair, shapeless clothes, bags under the eyes and cracked lips are not accidental – they are a part of JA’s image.
During the job interview preparations one of the directors said about JA: “We are lucky that she isn’t pretty, otherwise she would be a bigger problem.”
And nobody objected to his opinion. Mr. Kim referes to her as “such a rude girl”. DH’s older brother says JA looks scary, after watching her passing by on the street. I bet there are plenty of other people who see her this way.
DH is the only one who sees her as “pretty”. No wonder she ran to that restaurant after hearing him say that.
the slippers were a present to dh from ja for providing most helpful information to relocate granny to a nursing home.
First of all, that’s what JA told DH, but was it true though?
It’s not as if she went to a store to buy him a thank you present, saw slippers on sale and decided to get them for him. JA paid attention. She noticed that his slippers were old and worn out. He needed the new slippers, so she wanted to ‘take care of him”.
I don’t see Mr. Kim taking back his present back because of a misunderstanding. He wouldn’t. I also don’t see DH running after Mr. Kim on the street and yelling at him for doing that. I just don’t see this happening. The dynamic between these two is all wrong. That conversation looked more like a lover’s spat to me than a conversation between a boss and a subordinate.
would he sing a “love song? i do not think, but i did not interpret that song as a love message, but as a “missing” message.
Four people sang at the DH’s party.
DH’s brother and his wife sang some funny, cheerful song together.
Then Jung-hee (the bar owner) sang a sad song about love that didn’t last. While she was singing, we saw the monk (her lost love), praying.
Then DH sang his song (during the celebration, mind you).
“There is someone I long for, so I stay up all night long… My lonely heart becomes soaked with tears”.
Instead of the monk, we then saw JA listening to DH’s song.
I just can’t imagine Mr. Kim replacing JA in this scene, no matter how poor or sick he and his grandmother are.
and if he would have been taking care and helping mr. kim as he did with ja, he would definitely miss him.
Not definitely, but quite possibly.
However, standing in front of the bar, hoping to see someone for just a minute (after already spending hours in the same office); fighting back tears after hearing that someone is leaving for another job; risking being late for an important job interview, because someone doesn’t show up at the office on time – this is not just ‘missing’. This is longing for that someone.
When DH realized that JA’s phone got disconnected, he looked like he stopped breathing for a moment. There are plenty of other scenes.
And I don’t see Mr. Kim replacing JA in them either. Actually, the whole point is that to DH, JA eventually becomes irreplaceable. And it has nothing to do with her financial situation.
Regarding misunderstanding.
Its quite possible that I’m misunderstanding you, by the way.
I’ll use a “My Mister” as an example.
Yes, considering Korean society’s very conservative and hierarchical nature, as well as DH’s own behavior and personality (all of which are what I call ‘real life’), we can’t expect DH to develop feelings for JA or act on them.
However, if creators of the show include scenes that can serve as possible evidence of DH’s growing feelings towards JA, I’ll ignore the rules established by the society or DH himself, and will start believing that DH is indeed developing those feelings.
Of course, a show such as MM requires a lot of deciphering and guessing. But again, if I think that creators of the show “see” JA and DH as more than friends, then so do I. Because I’m interested the writers / director’s story, not what my knowledge of Korean society or DH tells me. By the way, my knowledge of S. Korea also comes from the dramas.
i am contemplating whether to continue this. but in the spirit of “o no, we will never let it go (MM)” – here i am again.
maria. i think i understand the basis of our disagreements – it’s our approach to these dramas. you look at a korean drama isolated in it’s own existence, separate from all else. i on the other hand take in with it’s integral connection to LIFE itself, because i believe that the creators of these dramas have very specific purposes, like showing to the koreans themselves and the world at large the painful, ugly underbelly of it’s society. to me a drama is worth much more if and when it succeeds to point out specific problems, whether it is in society, or psychology of humans, or may be the history, suffering and developing of a nation, that before these dramas i knew nothing about. it is also my hope that it can move the people’s hearts and minds, and as a result bring on some necessary corrections and changes. i personally do not believe that they just want the public simply enjoy or be entertained. i believe they have a much deeper goal in mind.
now back to the drama at hand.
But would he ever describe Mr. Kim to the bartender as ‘a handsome man’? maria, that was just an example. i meant any description, like “this tall man, this young man poorly dressed…” depending on how mr. kim or whoever it is that dh can describe. don’t get hang up on “handsome” – i did not mean it this way. besides, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”.
in regards to ja, i certainly think that she looks verrry pretty, (a kind of very troubling aura around her, but especially in that there is a very intense beauty) even with all the “flaws” that you describe. i am sure there were some people that did see her true features, after all women (especially) can see beyond the clothes, beyond hair that is not arranged perfectly, and can even sympathize with cracked lips. and yes, the men there were annoyed that she did not show respect to them, but i do not think that it was due to her appearance (less than a pretty girl), but more an ugly behavior, in their eyes.
he would definitely miss him.
Not definitely, but quite possibly. ok. i’ll go along with that.
However, if creators of the show include scenes that can serve as possible evidence of DH’s growing feelings towards JA,
yes, i do think that they showed us the developing feelings on both sides, i do not dispute that, but those feeling are not necessarily of romantic nature. at least not from dh, ja did develop a kind of infatuation with him, so you can call it romantic.
Actually, the whole point is that to DH, JA eventually becomes irreplaceable. so irreplaceable, that none of them called the other for the whole duration of being apart, and that was a long time, a year or two, do not remember exactly. how is that possible? i find it strange, after all this. and when they met, it was by accident. she did not even call him when she moved back. what would have happened if they would have bumped into each other only after a year, or two, or three…
For me, DH and JA not contacting each other during the one-year time skip is one of the biggest proof there is something in there beyond platonic. In real life, if we have started to develop feelings for someone, haven’t we experienced that shyness, tentativeness, and self-doubt every time we try to send a text or attempt to call the other person? Something we don’t go through if it’s just a good friend? And I suppose at the very least they are good friends, given everything that they’ve been through. So why the reservations? As in real life, we are more hesitant if there is something to lose. If there is nothing to lose, and no risk for disappointment, how difficult would it be to send a text or make a call with no qualms whatsoever?
For JA, given she is unsure if DH will actually pursue a divorce or not, she is giving him space, and more important, she is also giving herself space to move on as well. Again, if there is nothing to move on from, I doubt she will ever hesitate to contact DH.
For DH, JA told him she wanted to start a new life in Busan. So DH is also giving her space to do that, as he is also unsure how or if he should fit into that new life.
That space they provided each other allowed them to sort out a lot of things in their lives. Like DH getting a divorce not because of JA, but because his marriage is no longer workable. And JA staying out of the picture for a while somehow ensures that was indeed the case.
I do believe they would have contacted each other had the separation took longer, given that DH has been keeping tabs on JA thru the chairman, and JA passing through Saman hopeful to catch a glimpse of DH. The accidental meet-up at the end for me is your typical romance drama cliché. I’ve seen that a few times in other romance dramas. Making it accidental would give things a more romantic spin – it’s called destiny.
And upon their meeting, you can see the shyness and tentativeness in JA’s face, which is so unlike her, not until DH initiated the handshake and uttered “Thank you.” I have already explained in a separate post here the significance of those two actions from DH..
you must be kidding! SPACE? since when, when one is in love, loves – how do they have patience to wait? and not just wait, it’s a year or more! not in MY book of life. quite to the contrary, if in love, passion, lack of patience, anticipation (no matter how shy, insecure a person is)- those are the engines of love, especially when it is still “in progress”, i mean not established. do you see ja suddenly so timid, thoughtful, even to a degree sophisticated to calculate the necessity of time to heal for both of them? this is almost as if each of them is spending hours in a therapist chair, and thus arriving to a decision to give space and to heal. but since this is not the case, did it stop ja in her tracks while he was married? did dh consider his concern for ja inappropriate? does not seem this way.
their cutting their connection cold turkey for such a long time, seems to me very synthetic, to say the least, unless they both wanted to LET IT GO. to me this is the most mysterious and incomprehensible turn of events in this drama, unless the goal was to make it even more dramatic when they finally meet.
I don’t find their behavior odd at all. After the initial spark, they surged ahead as far as letting their feelings grow, and then paused and reflected only upon hitting a roadblock (ie, DH’s marriage not being resolved yet.) It’s like you let your heart rule for a while, and then when reality bites, you gain back your senses and allow your head to intrude. Well, at least for me that happens a lot in real life! Haha! 😅
All the events prior to the time skip happened only within a span of 3 months (including the time that JA was still in the opposing camp.) So everything happened so fast that it’s normal they would need to pause, to reflect and to process everything that happened. It’s not like what transpired between DH and JA happened in a span of years, giving them enough opportunity to process everything along the way.
unless the goal was to make it even more dramatic when they finally meet.
This one I fully agree with you. There’s a lot of that at work here I’m sure. In fact, most of the second half of ep 16 shouts of K drama tropes to me. The separation, the time skip, and the accidental meeting is something I’ve seen a lot in other romance K dramas. So yes, I agree some things were laid out to make the final scene more dramatic. What’s unique with MM is that they have tastefully retained the subtlety they have maintained throughout the show, and just delivered the final message through symbolic acts.
Coming back to this thread because MariaF and I were talking about MM while on the Healer threads. 🙂
It’s a good reminder that almost all of MM takes place within a 3-month storyline. The way the show develops JA and DH’s relationship, “little by little” (as Do Joon Young CEO instructs JA to do) really is brilliant. It feels like a reasonably natural progression, even though there are some pretty intense things that happen.
And yeah, the 2nd half of Episode 16 has some cliched moments, but it all felt necessary for the individual growth of DH and JA as they learned to thrive separately.
Speaking in hypotheticals again, over at Soompi Forum, someone (TZ) had the great insight that if Ji An had remained in Hugye, Dong Hoon would probably never have left Saman….because Ji An had paid a great deal to help him get promoted. He may have felt like he had to honor her effort in securing his promotion, and it would have been harder for him to leave to start his own firm.
Also (another great insight from TZ), had Ji An stayed in Hugye, even if Yoon Hee and Dong Hoon had gotten a divorce, there was probably no way Dong Hoon would have pursued Ji An. She couldn’t have been seen as the reason for YH and DH’s divorce, just like Yoon Hee didn’t want Do Joon Young to be the reason for YH and DH’s divorce. (YH told this to DJY on the rooftop in Ep 12).
So the time-skip, the separation, and the coming back together in the final scene really do help set things up for a healthy, irreproachable relationship for DH and JA if they choose to pursue one. (Which I think they do!)
Hi the_sweetroad,
I don’t like to restart our conversation on a negative note, but I don’t think I can agree with either insights.
If Ji An had remained in Hugye, Dong Hoon would probably never have left Saman.
It’s true that JA made a lot of efforts to get DH promoted, but there is no way he would’ve continued working at Saman, given what’d happened.
First of all, we all agree that JA has changed DH and helped him to get rid of those self-sacrificing tendencies.
Second of all, let’s look at the situation from JA’s point of view. Would have JA herself wanted DH to continue working at the company?
The company, where people knew about her colluding with the CEO and her role in setting up that Manager and DH? Where everyone knew about her shenanigans with the vouchers. And about DH wife’s infidelity. And about the murder (let’s not forget about the murder).
Also, would have she wanted DH to continue working there after all this gossiping about their relationship, even if it turned out to be platonic at the time?
I don’t think so.
And as far as people blaming JA for DH’s divorce goes, I think DH’s wife’s infidelity took care of that problem.
However, as soon as DH and JA start a real relationship, I imagine there will be plenty of “I told you so”s, time-skip or not.
I have to admit that I’m not a big fan of hypotheticals, when it comes to discussing this show. I feel it’s complex enough to interpret what actually happened there.
But it was a very good exercise. Thank you.
Very good points, Maria! I’m going to think more on this, as I think your points round out and bring a different and true perspective to the insights above. Glad we got things restarted.
Boy, one more sentence, and my post will qualify as a novel.
i think i understand the basis of our disagreements – it’s our approach to these dramas.
Eda, you’ve nailed it.
you look at a korean drama isolated in it’s own existence, separate from all else.
Well, no drama can be isolated in its own existence. Dramas are created by real people, who live in a real world and have real life experiences. They use their talent and their experiences to create a drama world.
So, what I’m trying to do, while watching that drama, is to live in their world, not in my head, if only for the duration of the show.
i on the other hand take in with it’s integral connection to LIFE itself,
You do seem to watch movies/shows through the lenses of you own experiences, and your interpretation of characters’ behavior or events in those shows based on what you already know about real life.
That why you say things like “Not in my book of life”.
I’m not like that.
I watch a show as if I’m making a mosaic or a picture puzzle, but without knowing in advance what that picture would be.
And because I don’t know how that picture is supposed to look, I can’t afford lose or not consider any pieces of that mosaic. Otherwise, I might get the wrong picture in the end.
Mind you, some people wouldn’t care about it: it’s a tv show, after all. But because I’m watching these shows for the creators’ story, I want to get that story right.
i personally do not believe that they just want the public simply enjoy or be entertained.
I don’t either. But again, I don’t necessarily see my way of watching shows as just being entertained.
It takes a lot of thinking and paying attention to details to put that mosaic together.
in regards to ja, i certainly think that she looks verrry pretty, (a kind of very troubling aura around her, but especially in that there is a very intense beauty).
I do too. But most people in the show don’t, so what I think of JA’s looks is irrelevant. Especially since the creators of MM made sure that she didn’t “look pretty”.
But to DH, she did, because, as you said, “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.” What’s even more interesting is that DH’s wife always looked polished and well dressed. You’d think she is his type, not troubled JA. And yet…
Actually, I first suspected that something was going on, when I heard DH describing JA as pretty. I didn’t expect him to describe her in that way. I thought he was too proper and too dead inside to even notice it.
So that moment became one of the pieces in the mosaic.
Here is another example. During the interview preparation directors said unpleasant things about JA, which troubled DH. One of them told DH: “Don’t make that face. It makes it look like you really like her”.
Of course, we could dismiss it, because, according to “our book”, DH just can’t possibly like JA.
But I don’t have such a book. So this moment became another piece in the mosaic.
There are plenty of other examples that have already been discussed in open and spoiler threads, so there’s no need to repeat them. All of them became pieces in my puzzle.
Regarding not staying in touch with each other, I agree with @actionscript, 100%.
Both DH and JA went through a lot, so they needed a pause.
When JA said that she was planning to try living like someone else, she meant it. She wanted to live a life of a regular person.
DH wanted JA to have an opportunity to build that new life (without all that baggage). He didn’t stop her exactly because he loved her.
JA told DH once: “I just wanted you to be happy”. DH wanted the same for her.
I don’t think it was easy for him though.
Yes, there were tropes in the end, but, as far as I’m concerned, they were totally worth it, because that scene, where JA finds DH by hearing his voice, was just perfect.
I see what you mean about the pieces in the mosaic. I remember my thoughts when DH became a director, everyone was happy around him and we could see him looking gloomy at the empty seat of JA. I was saying to myself: what? in the thrill of the moment, such an accomplishment and he can’t stop for ten minutes to enjoy and not think where JA is?! I thought K-fangirl said this is not a romance 🙂
@MariaF I love your thought about the mosaic, too! And about trying to follow the show according to how the creators created it.
And yes, Alexandra, it really seemed as if JA was all DH could think about in Episodes 14 and 15. Happiest day of his (work) life and he’s still missing the one who can’t be there to celebrate with him.
I think it’s also telling that in the subway, when he was announcing the promotion to his family, that he called his brothers first (they visited omma at home during the day to tell her), he called YH later when it was already dark (she’s not as important as the brothers), texted his son, and then he hesitated and had to gear himself up for telling JA last. It was important to him that JA know he got promoted…and as Maria said, when he later called her (because she never texted back) and her phone was disconnected it seemed as if he stopped breathing. There was an intensity here in the way he felt about JA that he probably couldn’t even identify yet.
If it hadn’t been for this interesting thread here I would have missed a lot of things. From a reluctant viewer of MM I ended up watching it again. I remembered another piece of the mosaic: in ep. 14 when JA told DYJ that she will not tell about the affair in case she gets cought, DYJ said: Wow! You two must really love each other a lot. And I wondered why he didn’t just say You must love him a lot. Perhaps, as a man himself, he saw the way DH was acting towards JA and interpreted as love.
Great observation! Nothing is random in this show. Every word counts.
We discussed in earlier threads how other people saw that something was happening between DH and JA, even before DH himself realized it: JA’s grandmother, DH’s wife, the loan shark, DYJ, that nasty office secretary…. Even that director correctly interpreted DH’s facial expression during the interview preparation session.
My first thought about this was that even if people around you see something about you their way, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is true. But then I remembered an old Romanian saying: When two say you are drunk, you must go to sleep, which means that when two people (ore more) say the same thing about you, you must consider they are right and do something about it.
Love that!
And it seems to just fit the show’s ecosystem, that we have to pay attention to what people around Dong Hoon are saying, since he’s so taciturn and it’s not in his nature to express himself….except to Ji An in key scenes.
I think there is a similar Central American saying that goes along the line of “If one person tells you you’re drunk, and you feel fine, ignore him. If ten people tell you you’re drunk, go and have a lie down”.
I disagree with this, case in point they all thought something sexual was going on between them, but a hug before their separation was the most it ever got to.
The notion of trusting a gossiping crowd that knows nothing of their relationship to be right seems a bit crazy to me. And in show, I think that the point being made was that their head was in the gutter (they thought they were much more physical than they were).
I think that from Ji An there was definitely attraction (when the wife said she had feelings for Dong Hoon, I didn’t get the feeling she meant platonic ones), but DH was always very conscious of this and never allowed anything more than a simple hug.
Not that I think any of that should stop them from developing something post timeskip, should they choose to.
You’re so right – after a 20-year frenemy relationship, DJY knows DH so well and has seen hints of his feelings for JA. And I was amazed during a recent re-watch to see just how much DJY commented on JA and DH’s friendship/ relationship – it’s woven all throughout the latter episodes. I don’t know if you’ve visited the Give Me Slippers site recently, but based on that re-watch I posted about DJY seeing and “naming” the love between JA and DH. It’s called “DJY: Captain of the Ship” 😁.
I read many posts on GiveMeSlippers but not this one, they are so many! But very intersting! I liked a lot the one about meaningful looks, waiting for nr. 3 post in the series.
I would say their relationship does not really qualify for the cutesy “frenemy” moniker, being more of a case of “worst enemy”. I would also say that knowing someone for a long time doesn’t really mean knowing him well, as his wife not realizing he would never have married her shows (and it’s not as if she had a rosy opinion of his character, considering him a nervous/twitchy subject). On the other hand, Dong Hoon was clearly able to categorize as the scum he was, as shown in the confrontation at the camping site.
Exactly. There was also a scene in an earlier episode. DH and JA were both in the office. He was working on something. JA got up to leave. DH stoped doing what he was doing and watched her leaving. It’s like he is always aware of her presence, she is always on his mind.
I just watched this scene the other day :). I think you’re talking about Ep 12, when JA leaves to go see Yoon Hee and DJY on the rooftop. DH stops what he’s doing and watches.
And something you pointed out earlier has stayed with me. DH and JA have spent hours at work every day, but when he goes to JH’s bar he’s still looking for her to pass by, after having seen her all day.
One more thing. The more I think about it, the more I think the final voiceover just gives us the biggest clue about where that open ending is headed — DH calling Ji An simply “Ji An” instead of his normal “Ji An-ssi” or “Lee Ji An” is not just a friendly address, nor the address of a mentor to a mentee, nor a father-figure to a younger person.
Hopefully a native Korean can correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve read, in neither of those scenarios would DH call her the intimate “Ji An”. If it indeed is a future conversation between them (and not just a “telepathic” one, as some have proposed 🙂 ), then they are in a relationship that is so close that honorifics and polite forms of addressing each other have disappeared and are no longer needed.
You are right. I was talking about that scene.
About DH not using honorifics.
I thought it was interesting that at the time JA supposedly found comfort, he was already calling her very informally and intimately.
That mosaic analogy was just perfect!
And yes, that final voice over indeed points to a future conversation where they are now in a more intimate relationship, and JA saying she has found peace included the fact that DH is now back in her life. That’s another piece of the puzzle, among dozen others, that indicates the ending is not open at all, but rather it is largely implied they’d be together.
And when I said the ending used a lot of romance drama tropes, the operative word there is not “trope,” but “romance.” In lieu of direct words or actions between DH and JA, which would seem out-of-place given how consistently understated the show was, they used a romance trope structure to provide yet again another clue how that ending was supposed to imply.
I thought it was interesting, too. Then I started reading about the possibility of a future conversation (since JA is answering him and all) and that made a bit more sense to me.
Something else that gets me now is just how emotional DH becomes when it comes to JA. As Ki Hoon says to Yu Ra – “Sang Hoon cries so much. So I always look to Dong Hoon, and if DH isn’t crying, then it’s OK. But if DH is crying, then something really is wrong.”
DH is not one to wear his emotions on his sleeve – but the show has him tear up over JA at least six times:
a) when he hears about her childhood
b) when they have the goodbye phone call
c) when he learns of the wiretap from Director Park Dong Un
d) when DJY reveals to him the lengths JA is going to to protect DH
e) when he promises her he’ll be happy so she won’t hurt any more over him
f) and when they have their farewell hug
For DH, things are a big deal when it comes to JA.
So it’s so great to see him look so happy to see her again at the end!
And he asked her “Why do you have to go so far away?” when she announced she was moving to Busan. For him to say “You should come visit my office,” at the end was a hint to her he wanted to see her again. It could just be a friendly invitation….but I think it’s also part of that mosaic, when combined with his earlier “Why do you have to go so far away?”
It always amazes me how emotional Korean men are in dramas. I wonder if they are like that in real life, too. In Romania, educated men cry so rarely that I can barely remember any of the men around me ever crying. So even if for DH to weep six times is little, I was always like: what? there he goes shedding tears again? (although I did try to understand him) You can imagine what I though when I saw his older brother crying loudly so many times 🙂
Well, we have to forgive DH: the guy is not in a happy place.
But also I noticed it, so I decided to take a look at one random non-comedy western show (don’t remember which one). The guy was crying there too!
It seems that JA is the one who was able bring DH out of his shell. She is good for him. I don’t know why he should look for someone else.
Yep.
DH invites JA to at least visit his company, but she responds with an invitation to have a meal together. Meaning they don’t have to stay away from each other any more. And that smile on DH’s face!
He is sooo happy! 🙂 🙂 It was more than he expected, it seems like. Really, they both didn’t know what to expect from the other at this chance meeting. And it went better than they could have imagined. I’m sure Ji An was surprised when Dong Hoon gripped her hand that tightly for 32 seconds.
Really, they both didn’t know what to expect from the other at this chance meeting.
Absolutely true. So they discovered that, while time passed, their feelings haven’t changed.
And 32 seconds is a long time even in real life, but in a tv show or a movie it’s an eternity.
Oh I love how loaded and meaningful that very short sequence was! They were initially dropping minute hints, and then progressing bit-by-bit with each exchange.. DH’s initial “I heard you’re good at your work” to suggest he’s keeping tabs, to JA’s a bit more bold and direct “I passed by Saman E&C,” to DH’s call to action “You should come and visit.” I love JA’s panic look when her friends came calling, so DH sprang to action (finally!!) with the handshake (which he never did before, ever) and JA finally sealing the deal with the dinner invite.
The fact that the camera focused on and drew attention to DH’s very tight grip and then the imprint it had left on JA’s hands, that surely forms another piece in that mosaic, perhaps the last few pieces (including the very crucial voiceover dialogue) that finally completed the entire picture.
Boy, one more sentence, and my post will qualify as a novel. go for it maria. should we start looking for a publisher?
of course, i could answer to every one of your thoughts on those issues above, but i think we both said enough and pretty much know where we stand together and apart. so i am signing off, guys, and thank you for all your contributions.
i am already eagerly awaiting the next journey into… oooouuuu — my favorite healer, seems like it’s going through this time. and if heard it through the grapevine will end up one of the chosen ones, i am sure it will create a similar amount of enthusiasm and interest as mm did here. yes, it is so good and so much food for thought. meet you all at the next round.
Is it going to be Healer? That would be great – I love that show!
just checked the results, so far healer is on top with 72 votes, all the rest are in the 50s, with 469 votes total, out of 179 voters, with 2 days left. if any other drama will suddenly jump over it, that would be an indication that something’s fishy. if you remember, it did happen last time.
I’m curious how this discussion is going to go. The show is pretty straightforward: we know who our heroes and who our villains are, and how they feel about each other. Not much to interpret, in my opinion. But Healer is a pleasure to watch, for sure.
My feelings exactly. Healer is one of my favorite shows too, but there isn’t much to interpret.
maria, one more thing comes to mind: you approach the drama like a detective/literary critic. i am considering the drama a teacher. both approaches are valid, in my opinion. but may be the best would be to integrate them.
Eda, you know me so well😊
Using a threat terminology, in my “investigation” I’m looking for a presence of “intent, capability and opportunity’: the intent of a show’s creators and capabilities and opportunities they provide their characters with (which, of course, affect how these characters feel and behave).
I believe I also consider a show a teacher. But I feel I need that detecting to understand what exactly that show tries to teach me.
Besides, I don’t always dismiss my knowledge of “life’s realities”.
For example, I made an observation earlier that, decent or not, a lonely man in an unhappy marriage will most likely fall for a young, beautiful woman, with whom he has a deep emotional connection, who understands him and believes in him like nobody else, and who is in love with him.
So, as much as I try to just follow the evidence, it’s very hard to totally turn off those “brain shortcuts” that automatically match events with previous experiences.
Also, I like my “suspects to confess”. In the context of MM it means that, as much as I’m convinced that DH’s feelings are not platonic, I still consider the MM’s ending an open one.
And I enjoyed the process of DH’s and JA’s relationship’s development so much, that it’s not really important where their relationship is going to end up, as long as it ends up in a good place. The one that satisfies both of them.
And I enjoyed the process of DH’s and JA’s relationship’s development so much, that it’s not really important where their relationship is going to end up, as long as it ends up in a good place. The one that satisfies both of them.
hey, we finally agree on something wholeheartedly, as i said exactly that a while ago. good job, progress.
and you are right about healer, but would it be nice to swoon all together?!
Yes. Progress. We both wish DH and JA the best, after all. And we want them to decide what that best means for them.
Also, I’m really glad that we have a different understanding of where this show was going regarding the DH and JA’s relationship. It inspired me to look deeper and gave me more opportunities to evaluate and articulate my opinions. So, thank you.
“Swooning “ is the word!
Okay, I am happy to see you say that she was beautiful (in contrast to the other post, maybe I misread it). I would say more than “unhappy marriage”, a “marriage where the other spouse cheats/is cheating”. Quite frankly, given what his wife was doing, I agree with Ji An that she didn’t deserve any more loyalty than she was willing to give, namely none. So ethically/emotionally I would be perfectly comfortable with Ji An/Dong Hoon.
Well, by the end of the show, with the business dress and without the gloomy look, she is certainly beautiful by anybody’s standards (not that before she was not… even in-show, her colleague falls for her -see bar scene after the affair reveal at the office- and DH’s director brother’s actress gf thinks she is beautiful without the need for makeup and dresses, and hopes she does not realize it (implying that even as an actress she envious of her beauty).
I don’t think this is the case with reference to her beauty: Dong Hoon’s director brother’s girlfriend thought that she was pretty enough to be in the entertainment industry (actress, etc.), so in-show she was clearly perceived as attractive..
Apologies, I was wrong… she says she is beautiful, though. Basically, beautiful enough without even putting make up on that she is jealous of her and hopes she won’t even discover how beautiful she is, as an entertainer.
Actually, Yoo Ra, the actress girlfrined of Dong Hoon’s director brother, the first time she sees Ji An says that it has been a long time she has seen a woman without makeup, and told her she is pretty and doesn’t know that, saying that it is sad but gratifying, and she hopes she never finds out how pretty she is. So, I would definitely say she is very pretty in the context of the drama, enough that people notice it even without the need for makeup or fancy clothes. By contrast, Ji An asks evil boss about why he is dating a middle-aged woman, questioning her beauty, and doesn’t seem particularly impressed. I don’t think the wife was particularly stilysh, she wore business-formal, I don’t remember designer clothes.
Actually, you said “well dressed”.. okay, that’s fair, business clothes, etc. Plainer look at home. Not Astrid from crazy rich asians.
Well, not too under the surface, considering an actress noticed she was beautiful even without the need for makeup or stylish dresses.
I think the “scary” might have had more to do with gloominess/reputation than her appearance, the actress gf of DH’s director brother met her at the bar, in a more relaxed atmosphere.
Well, they chose to cast a very attractive actress as her, so that was a deliberate decision as well (they could have chosen someone plainer looking, had they wished to). Plus, looking for majority opinion about anything, even in-drama, is not really a convincing argument, given that most of their beliefs wrong (consider the rumors they spread about DH and JA’s illicit affair, when the two only hugged at once during the end of the show). Not to mention that evil boss wanted her to “seduce” DH. He was skeptical because of DH’s upstanding character (he knew he was not a man to cheat, having known him for so long), certainly not because he thought she had no chances compared to his wife (funnily enough JA snidely remarks about the latter’s looks when she questions evil boss about choosing a middle aged woman for an affair).
I think that they say she is scary just because of the gloominess and reputation, but she is obviously very attractive. Plus, they do have characters that fall for her (her young colleague, in the bar scene after they reveal the cheating at the office).
And DH’s brother’s gf, an actress, thinks she is beautiful even without the need for makeup or stylish clothes. Notice how she sees her in a more relaxed context, and she hasn’t heard any rumor about her.
Without either of those two aspects, she can immediately see her beauty. I think that this scene was an intentional decision from the creators as well. And by the end, in an business dress, she certainly looks very attractive by anyone’s standard (not that she didn’t before, mind you).
@artist
I see you’ve been reading our old comments. 😊
actress girlfriend of DH’s movie director brother… even her, as a movie actress, was envious of her beauty-.
I remember that scene.
You make good points. However, here are two reasons I still think it is significant that DH described JA as pretty to the bartender at that time:
1. DH’s brothers learned about JA throwing away the vouchers and saving DH from being fired. So they started asking DH, if JA was pretty. Many times. His answer was always: “Stop it. She is a child. Stop it.”
Fast forward a few episodes, and what do you know! She is pretty now. To him.
It’s important that nobody else saw her that way at the time. Not DH’s brother. Not that director, who made “not pretty” comment during interview preparations.
And creators of the show definitely made sure she looked unkept and unattractive (I mean her make up, her clothes, her whole demeanor.)
2. When Yu Ra saw JA, she wasn’t that “wounded animal” anymore, so to speak. JA was in the beginning of a process of becoming the new JA. Things were changing, so her facial expression and her general looks were changing too.
And the writers wanted other people in the show to start noticing JA’s beauty.
Also, Yu Ra is a woman. I think women can see better what’s underneath those unkept looks.
Anyway, it’s just my interpretation.
Yes, I basically agree with the perspective that he would have similarly helped the guy. Which says nothing about anything that might happen post time skip, of course.
I think he would have helped in the same way, though I also hope Ji An and Dong Hoon develop something post-timeskip.
I agree with the fact that he would have helped regardless of sex, I didn’t see that as part of romantic attachment per se. Though I would like to believe something could develop if they are unattached post timeskip.
I don’t think that “obligation” is the right word, I don’t like it because it makes it feel like something fake and forced, rather than a chosen value. He values family, nobody forced him to do this, he is being true to his value: he definitely wants to help them spontaneously, without asking anything in return, as they would for them.
We see them in the end come together willingly. But it was surely difficult for him, immensely stressful, with his little money, and it imposed a huge burden on him.
With Ji An, they were so in sync, shared their values so deeply, that helping her must have felt as natural as helping himself. Him beating up the guy whose father she killed was an expression of everything he believed in about family.
Still, I am hears for anything that points in the direction of more interaction between Dong Hoon and Ji An. They protected each other unconditionally, and in that respect she was kind of a mirror of his wife: while the latter should have had his back, but was conspiring with his worst enemy, Ji An was hired to conspire against him by his worst enemy, and ended up guarding his back instead.
I’d like to make a general observation:
While reading the comments, I’ve noticed, that the main arguments against the existence of romantic feelings between DH and JA and the possibility of their future together are that DH is too decent, and JA is too young.
I find these arguments really strange.
I’ll start with DH.
DH and Yoon-hee have been married for many years.
We don’t know how strong their love was in the beginning, but their marriage has obviously been a mistake: their visions for their future together couldn’t have been more different, they didn’t know how to communicate with each other and how to resolve their problems. Both were at fault, and their marriage has failed. Now both of them are unhappy.
So DH plays soccer, drinks and cleans the house. The wife finds a better ‘solution’: she has an affair. Which also fails.
Meanwhile, DH meets JA. She is half his age, poor, and a criminal.
Despite all of that, she turns out to be the person who helps DH to change his live and pretty much saves him.
JA understands DH’s struggles, she gets him to open up, and she gives him the moral and emotional support that nobody else can provide. I’m not going to go into the details, because everyone here knows what I’m talking about.
Also, JA is a good person, she is beautiful, and she has fallen in love with DH.
DH slowly becomes more and more attached to JA: he protects her, he looks for her, he misses her, and he sings songs about lost love, among other things.
Now what?
To remain a decent and kind person, is DH supposed to either stay in that miserable marriage or find a different woman to love?
How loving JA would strip DH of decency and kindness remains a mystery to me.
Ok, what if he and JA were approximately the same age?
Enter “She is too young” argument.
There’s been a tendency lately to infantilize young people. Somehow they are expected to stay over sensitive, vulnerable and offended until they are at least in their late thirties. I suspect that this attitude leads many of us to believe that JA is too young for DH.
Well, she is not. Because, if JA is not a grown up, I don’t know who is.
She has proven it many times too. She is smart, independent, and she is a fighter and a survivor. DH can depend on her in any situation. So, if he has lost his head over her, she deserves it more than anybody else.
We don’t know what the future holds for DH and JA. But after everything they’ve been through, I hope they will pick the right partners. Because, as the dowager said in “Downton Abbey”, “marriage is a long business “.
A standing ovation from me, Maria 😊👏👏
maria, you say We don’t know how strong their love was in the beginning, but their marriage has obviously been a mistake: not every failed marriage is a mistake. it might have been right for that time and for that kind of people that they were at that time. life happens, and people change, grow and what was right then might not fit into their lives now. and since you admit that we know nothing of their beginnings, we have no right to label it a mistake. i am divorced, but do not consider my previous marriage a mistake, no matter how it turned out. and i am not sure the creators of this drama wanted us to think of it as a mistake. just saying.
Both were at fault, and their marriage has failed. Now both of them are unhappy. agree.
So DH plays soccer, drinks and cleans the house. The wife finds a better ‘solution’: she has an affair. Which also fails. love the way you put it.
JA is a good person, she is beautiful, i do think she’s beautiful, but we can not disregard the other side of her personality – she’s a criminal. and we understand her circumstances and are rooting for her, this does not change the reality that she IS a criminal. we forgive her, and we love her, and we are proud of her road to recovery and we believe in her ability to be a completely rehabilitated person and a good addition to the society. all this coexists, and the drama does not hide it.
JA is too young. There’s been a tendency lately to infantilize young people. Somehow they are expected to stay over sensitive, vulnerable and offended until they are at least in their late thirties. I suspect that this attitude leads many of us to believe that JA is too young for DH. i never had a problem with people of different ages falling in love. love does not and should not have a stop sign. if you remember what i wrote about the love story in secret love affair, you can be assured that ja being too young is not THE problem, the problem is in dh’s perception of her, it is in his head, or may be DNA. this is how he perceives decency throughout his life, his ending up with ja is against this great character feature or character flaw (one can view it either way), and even that it looks like his life has turned around, the core essence of a person does not change, even when they change the circumstances and get to different understandings. that is the reason i think he will not end up with ja, he will not take this path in the future. or there is always a possibility that i am mistaken, i take this in consideration also. but as anything else that we project for the future, it is an unknown, unless a gypsy tells us so.
Can you elaborate on what you mean here, eda? “the problem is in dh’s perception of her, it is in his head, or may be DNA. this is how he perceives decency throughout his life, his ending up with ja is against this great character feature or character flaw”
How do you think DH perceives JA? (Or are you linking the fact that she’s done some criminal things into DH’s perception of her?)
ayahh, sweetroad, nothing to do with criminal things for dh. but we all established and agreed that dh is a profoundly decent human. the decency aspect in his character is like ancient hieroglyphs engraved on ancient rocks for eternity, no time, or weather, or elements of nature were able to erase those. that is how i see dh’s decency, kind of. and that decency dictates, may be even subconsciously, that ja has to be allowed to experience life, to grow, to develop as a human being. i agree that she’s smart, even beyond her years; i believe some of the petty thief behavior she learned from her past miserable life as she did not see any other way so she learned to manipulate and achieve results through it also relying on her intelligence, but i will argue that no matter how much she changed in front of our eyes, she’s still emotionally very very young and inexperienced. dh can not afford to make her his woman, even if we assume that she herself wants it and thinks that this is love. dh still referred to her as a “pitiful kid” not very far from the ending of the drama (do not remember what episode) this can not just change and disappear in an instant. yes, he runs after here, yes he is upset to loose her, yes he wants to save her… and on and on. but is it of a romantic nature? that is what i question again and again. and even if it has romantic undertones, will he allow himself to go along with the romance itself?
i understand the desire of many people to put them together, it’s romantic, it’s warm, it’ s satisfying… whether that is the case, i can not answer.
does this make sense?
Thanks for clarifying, Eda! Yes, that was helpful in understanding your perspective more.
I somehow don’t think their marriage failed, because they grew or changed. Quite the opposite. I think that each of them entered their marriage with certain expectations, but neither of them was willing to change or compromise to meet each other’s expectations. For example, the wife never learned to love that neighborhood and DH’s family and friends. And DH never made an effort to show his wife that she is the most important person in his life. That’s why I think it was a mistake.
I wrote “DH meets JA. She is half his age, poor, and a criminal”, so I don’t deny that JA was a criminal. She got rehabilitated though, and her criminal behavior didn’t bother DH much in the first place, so I don’t see it as a problem.
Age difference definitely bothered DH, so it’s more complicated. But I believe that DH’s perception of JA slowly changed. The more time he spent with her, the less he was inclined to treat her like a kid.
If JA goes after DH, he might not be able to resist her this time. People don’t change, until they do.
In SLA, Hye Won always found appalling the chairman daughter’s liaisons with young boys. It didn’t stop her from falling in love and starting a relationship with SJ.
There are similarities between SLA and MM. In both shows younger characters serve as a catalyst for change. And in both shows the younger characters fell in love with the older ones.
MM possibly chickened out because of the fans’ backlash. IU herself was hesitant to participate in the project because of the Lolita associations. But I’d like to believe that the new DH wouldn’t care about it. The show is over anyway. 😊
Earlier, I had to remind myself why Ji An was a criminal 🙂 since she was acquitted of murder. But of course, the wiretapping and what she did to Park Dong Un were criminal behaviors.
MM possibly chickened out because of the fans’ backlash.
Yep. They even changed their original relationship chart and removed the “affection” line between Dong Hoon and Ji An. This article is in Korean but Google Translate does a decent job. https://www.dispatch.co.kr/1210564#_DYAD
Thank you for the link. Really interesting.
So we were right all along then!
Funny how the “affection” lines were between DH and JA, and then between Yoon Hee and Joon Young, despite DH and YH being the married couple! 😅
The TVN commercial also called the show an “age-gap romance between Lee Sun Kyun & IU.” It went on to say “This pairing is probably the most unlikely and most exciting romantic duo in the history of Korean dramas.”
I definitely agree with the “most unlikely” and the “most exciting” parts.😄
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMmSP2bUSw8&t=173s
Yes, I also felt like it was a case of backpedaling… kinds of offensive that art would be compromised that way, don’t know whether we got a better product for it, but maybe the ambiguity allowing anyone to see what they want in the situation works better for more people.
This confirms what I thought might be the case. Immature public, though with Secret Love Affair, etc. thing seem to be changing (though I would like a non-cheating, more well adjusted relationship).
Re: her being a criminal… same exact situation! Though she always had his back, so her actions with Dong Hoon were a moot point. I don’t think I remember if she was the one that framed the other guy (the mistaken identity issue).
I don’t think that it’s fair to make this into a fifty/fifty thing, and I don’t think that this is what she show shows us anyway (see Ji An having the same ideas on family -her grandma/his mom-, really wanting to be part of his circle and being accepted with open arms, showing how accepting they were, her pointing out to the wife how good Dong Hoon was to her, making her notice what she took for granted, like the phone calls to ask what she needed. Him putting up in silence with her absence because he wanted to support her, doing the housework and then leaning more on his friends, had been the respectful thing to do, because he didn’t want to change her. He really did a lot of stuff for her (like nursing her back to health after her breakup with her lover). But it did contribute to the vicious cycle spiral. In general, he did not point out what he was doing for her, but just did it. She took it for granted,and it took Ji An coming along to make her appreciate it (like the kindness of always asking whether she needed anything before coming home, which meant that he thought of her when coming home). But that was more of an incidental thing, the more fundamental issue is that she bought a cat and was asking it to bark. I elaborate more in this response, but fundamentally:
This was my thought as well during the show
Also elaborated in the episode 11&12 open thread/spoiler sections.
And here in a more condensed, TLDR form.
I will clarify: they both would have had the right to ask the other to change (to ask or convince, not to manipulate or coerce). Of course, there are appropriate requests and inappropriate ones. I don’t think that him asking her to give up her career because he wanted to see more of her at home would have been appropriate, for example. Similarly, her asking to distance himself from friends and family simply because she cannot deal with her own insecurities and needs the constant validation to have his attention focused on her, to the exclusion of the rest of the people he loves (barring maybe the kid) strikes me as slightly too clingy and possessive for comfort.
Of course, the request to separate him from friends and family seems rather revolting given what we know of his character and of the bonds of the neighborhood. And of course it’s not as if she has any inborn right to have him agree with her. And her feeling resentful that he doesn’t is ridiculous. She was the one that married him while knowing exactly how he was, and pretended to go along with it, while biding her time thinking she could mold him to her wishes.
Also of significance that she is requesting this of him just because she is unable to deal with her own insecurities. Which manifested even with her lover (see episode 1).
Elaborated even here and here as well as in episode 11&12 open thread/spoiler sections, but TLDR, I don’t think that this is the case.
Dong Hoon was willing to compromise.
Remember that at the time they both knew she cheated (this is important), but she took him to task for spending time with his friends (no compassion, thinking he might not want to see her and spend some time with his support group instead, plus gaslighting/projection, questioning his commitment when she gave him many more reasons to question hers… plus she had just flashbacked in the car about his kindness while he knew of her affair).
He was so fed up with he absurdity of it all, at the time, that he finally snapped back, rather than apologizing or putting up with her unfair and uncharitable complaints (again, when they both knew what she was up to herself). He clearly told her that he didn’t want to come back to an empty home, and that’s why he relied on his friends. She backpedaled and settled in a “vicious cycle” explanation, telling him that she understood how he could see things that way.
Immediately after, despite it being a massively unfair request, given the above context, he agreed to offer a compromise that she spurned without even offering one of her own, regarding her work hours, this despite her being the one to raise the issue and attack him in the first place. This tells me that he would have been more than willing to meet her halfway in this -as he effectively did here-, given he was willing to do so ever after her massive betrayal, when she would have not had any right to question how he spent his time (she could count herself fortunate he was not with a lover).
I personally would also think, in hindsight, that distancing himself and compromising the relationship with people that would never betray him to please someone that would be willing to betray him in such an horrific fashion as she did would have ben the height of foolishness.
I don’t think this is fair given what she makes clear it would take to convince her of that, as she explains in her apology. Actually, these basically boil down to the same request.
The point is that the only way to satisfy her request she would have accepted was for him to distance himself from family and friends, and that was about as much of a non-starter for him as Ji An distancing herself from her grandma.
Also, would this really make things better? She used the kid as a token, but does she really think that he would have been better without the bonds with his extended family? She talks about relationships as if they were competitions (something that exasperated him, so it’s probably a frequent point of discussion), but wouldn’t she find it absurd if someone asked her who she loves more between her husband and her child? Dong Hoon tells her that loving family and friends does not mean he does not love her. Turning the tables on her, does she really think that she loves her husband less because she also loves her child? These are just different types of love.
She knew what he was like and what the expectations were when she married him (as explained in this site’s old review). But she never genuinely tried to fit in his circle (we know from Ji An’s experience that they were extremely open to anyone that genuinely wanted to fit in, considering how she immediately hits it off with his friends and brothers). She hated (maybe an overstatement she made in anger) his friends, and did favors to his family (compare the way she keeps score and expects him to change for her in return, with his brother paying Ji An’s grandma’s funeral with all the money he had, without expecting anything in return)/met with his brothers with an eye to get him on his side and mold him into who she wanted.
The point is, she didn’t want to fit in (otherwise she would have, like Ji An), she wanted him to distance himself from friends and family (which would go down with him about as well as trying to distance Ji An from her grandma). He tried to involve her in family activities, and she habitually made excuses to avoid them (episode 1, episode 7), something that gave him pain, but he was resigned to. Paradoxically, at the same time she also complained about him being there without her. Moving to a different neighborhood wouldn’t help: note how she didn’t have any friend group outside the neighborhood, while he had the friends at work.
A move would have only made him suffer for the distance from old friends and family, but he would have still wanted to be part of a community, while she would have wanted to monopolize his attention, as she did to her lover (see their fight in the first episode about him not carrying a second phone… same insecurity/need for validation/clingy/needy/controlling/possessive tendency, even had they married this was shaping up to be a repeat of her old marriage).
I would also point out that between the two only one of them tried to mold the other into who they wanted after agreeing to enter the relationship. The other accepted her as she was, keeping his disappointment to himself, and just refused to have central parts of his life and personality changed.
She was the one that entered the relationship knowing what his values were (anyone that spent ten minutes with the guy would), and acted as she was agreeing with it (“favors” to family -in quotes because compare her expecting him to let himself be molded into who she wanted as “recompense”, to his brother paying with all his money for Ji An’s grandma’s funeral with his entire possessions-, meeting his brothers), but not really doing so: she didn’t accept them as family, she was just biding her time, waiting to mold him to her point of view. He didn’t comply to the unfair request (as Ji An wouldn’ t comply if someone wanted to distance her from family due to their own insecurities), and she resented him for it.
I think that if they were both upfront about their expectations from the beginning (in the story, he is -as anyone who met him for ten seconds understand his feelings towards family-, but she initially tried to go along and ingratiate herself to him, biding her time until she could mold him into who she wanted), they would have saved themselves a lot of heartaches.
It’s true though that we don’t know much about their past. Presumably at the time they had the kid they were happy, but maybe she was still sneakily waiting to see whether she could mold him into who she wanted. One big red flag in terms of flaws would have been her possessiveness/needyness, as evidenced also by her fight with her lover in the first episode, which followed a pattern very similar to the ones she had with Dong Hoon. Of course, besides that, there is the fact that he would never cheat on her, while she turned out to be someone willing to betray him in such an horrific way as she did. That is a pretty big character flaw as well, to use an euphemism.
In other words, she bought a cat and wanted it to bark, and resented him when it didn’t. Instead of wondering whether there was something wrong with her starting assumptions.
Not saying that he was perfect, but in terms of what actually went wrong, fundamentally, in the marriage:
The fact that she suffered and was lonely in clear, but one has to do the next step and ask themselves whose fault was that. He tried to compromise, and she wasn’t willing to meet him half way. He always apologized, while she basically never owned her responsibilities (apart from when he pushed back and she settled for “a vicious cycle”, but then again, in terms of trying to make it actually work, he was the one willing to compromise, she not only didn’t try to compromise on the work side, but she spurned his offer. This is despite them both knowing she cheated).
I also wish the show had focused more on her character growth besides the obvious turning against her boyfriend and helping her husband/Ji An (I must say, almost at the last possible moment, last chance left, a bit like for the appearance of her guilt). Namely her reflecting about what her husband had done (the bit of it we see is the last phone call between them when she tells him to get beer, remembering Ji An’s words -she had to have a stranger make her notice the way her own husband cared about her-).
And more importantly, her reflecting on whether her insecurities and need for validation, possessiveness and desire to monopolize her partner’s attention, to the detriment of other relationships, and pretending they do the same, is a healthy outlook. There were many ways to do this:
True, but only one of them pretended to be okay with the other’s expectations, while in reality biding her time, doing favors and spending time with his brothers only to “get him by her side” and mold them into who she wanted. The other accepted her as she was (though he suffered when he tried to integrate her in his family and she spurned him, no longer interested because she couldn’t use them as a premise to change him, an was also didn’t like to come back to an empty home).
This is half true. He was not willing to change his core personality (and she had no right to ask him to), but he was willing to compromise even after she cheated on him (which they both knew), and questioned his commitment, and attacked him. He finally had enough and pointed out he didn’t want to come home to an empty apartment, and she backtracked to “vicious cycle”, admitting however that she saw how he could have seen it that way.
But she didn’t offer to compromise on the working late side, while he did offer to compromise on the meeting with his friends side. She nitpicked (!? The gall… when she knew he knew she cheated on him, and probably would like to see as little of her as possible, and lean into his support group!) and spurned the offer. Not that I think her request was fair, and distancing himself from people that would always have his back for the sake of someone that would betray him horrifically is just a dumb decision.
This in particular I don’t think was true or fair. He constantly showed her that he cared about her. And she knew it, at least partially, though she seemed to be affected by continued memory loss, as she kept questioning his commitment, while she gave him more than enough motives to question hers.
Let’s not forget that she flashed back to him caring for her despite her treating him rudely and impatiently, even nursing her in bed, while she was recuperating from her breakup with her lover. Does that not signal she was important to him? She does not see him thinking about her well being even when confronting her lover -taking him to task for never intending to marry her-, but she sees his kindness in response to her snapping at him and taking him for granted-.
He was willing to compromise even after her cheating. He was willing to do the housework before she came home and to not even watch TV, just because he wanted to support her. He suffered in silence through her absence due to late working hours, leaning on his friends, but never burdening her with his feelings.
He trusted her unconditionally, something she knew and exploited. He wanted her to be part of his family, and made offer after offer trying to give her the chance to fit in, but she simply wasn’t interested, and again, he suffered in silence (episode 1 -also the dinner where he shuts down when reminded of her absence and her not calling him (she was with her lover), bottling up the pain-, episode 7).
He always thought of her when he came home, asking her whether she needed anything. It took a complete stranger like Ji An to make her appreciate the care he had for her, to point out that the thing she was looking for in her lover (their spat in episode one about him not calling), her husband always did (thinking of her and calling her every time he came home from work, even in the last episode, after the devastation she had put him through). She had simply taken him for granted to the point that she didn’t notice his gestures at all (the flashback scene was the exception, but even that seemed to be soon forgotten, because she went back to questioning his commitment -absurd, given her own actions-, as if she had amnesia… I cannot help but think this might have been a coping mechanism, her thinking he didn’t love her as a way to convince herself what she did to him didn’t hurt him as much or threaten and destroy something so precious).
Compare this with what she did for him. She did favors to his family and spent time with his brothers exclusively because she wanted to ingratiate herself to him in order to mold him into who she wanted. Compare this with his brother paying JA’s grandma’s funeral with all the money he had, not expecting anything in return.
She simply “felt” she gave him his full attention, but in reality it was about herself and her possessiveness, and her insecurities and need for validation. She did the same thing with her lover, consider the fight she started in the very first episode where she wanted him to get a second phone and call her, because she was constantly looking for his calls, questioning his commitment to the relationship: we can see the same dynamic starting to shape up her as she has in her marriage with Dong Hoon. There is a pattern here, but it’s something better left for a therapist to deal with, rather than a spouse.
The only way she felt he could prove she mattered to him was by distancing himself from everyone else in his life besides her. I don’t know if it’s the fact that the roles aren’t reversed that we can’t see at a glance how unfair a request this is. If Ji An’s boyfriend had tried to distance her from her grandma due to his own inferiority complex, hopefully we would see how crazy it would be to indulge him as if he was making a normal request.
Again, does she love her husband less because she also loves her kid? Does she rank her husband and kid in terms of who she loves more? That there are multiple forms of love? In other words, does she not grasp the concept that if you love somebody, it’s not as if they are your property?
Maybe I came off as too strong, because as viewers we like the Neighborhood group so much, and we think that it’s such a travesty to ask him to distance himself from such beautiful relationships (Ji An saying that she wishes she reincarnated in that neighborhood).
She can talk to him about this and her feelings, not threaten or force him to change. And the appropriateness of the topic has to be taken into account. For example, I don’t think it would be appropriate for him to ask her to quit her job because he feels alone at home.
Similarly, his relationship with family and friends is such a deeply personal and important aspect of his life that I don’t really feel it’s particularly appropriate for her to ask him to change that, because essentially she is asking him to change the core of his being -the question would then be, what did she like about him so much, if the most important value to him is something she wants to change-.
I also don’t think that it’s right for her to feel resentful, as if he owed it to her to change himself since she did some favors (compare the transactional nature of the exchange here with the brother paying for JA’s grandma’s funeral with all his possessions without expecting anything in return).
Basically, her trying to separate him from friends and family because she couldn’t deal with her own insecurities seems pretty bonkers, and she is not entitled to him necessarily agreeing. He might or might not, but being resentful when she was the one that married him knowing fully well of his values, pretended to go along with it but was only biding her time in an effort to turn him into what she wished him to be, is downright crazy.
In this link I share a snippet from the website’s original review that I found poignant. The only thing it didn’t mention was the fact that she also had a controlling/possessive/clingy/needy streak, as demonstrated by her first fight with her lover in the first episode.
See this thread. Essentially, we see DH being unable to physically enter the apartment building when he sees his wife’s car outside, and yet (with the usual self absorption and lack of compassion for him) she takes him to task for spending time with his friends rather than being at home with her (for the affair, that now she knows he knows about, and is something that physically pains him -we see him imagining the affair while alone, and be turn around in front of their apartment when he sees her car).
Still, even in this extreme circumstance, he is willing to compromise, and is the one that offers to, despite her being the one that raised the issue and accused him in the first place. In turn, she nitpicks his offer and then spurns it, without offering any compromise of her own.
Remember how DH talked about having to work his day job, then coming home and immediately doing the housework before she came back, so he could support her while she pursued her career. But, he said, she went directly in the studio (something to add to her coming back home late from work, which as he later learned was not always truly due to work), and he couldn’t even turn on the tv volume.
We know he is not truly made of rocks. And yet his loneliness is not a factor for her, despite absurdly claiming, after her affair, that he was a priority for her. Yet he was the one doing the housework right after coming home from a hard day at a job he hated, just so he could support her, and she was the one going right into the studio (she only acknowledges her role in this when he finally pushes back, after her absurdly self entitled recrimination -considering she knows he has learned of her affair-, and tells her he does not want to come back to an empty apartment).
As it was not when she routinely (ep 1, ep 7, talk with brothers where it was clear how often she ghosted them, dinner with mother in law where the latter cooks her specialty because it’s so rare to see them there) making excuses to avoid family events he invited and tried to include her into, and didn’t call him the whole day, to boot (she was with her lover). How is being unavailable a problem only when he wants to see his family and friends? Is he not allowed to feel abandoned? Would appear not, from how she pushes all the blame on him. And despite all this and her affair, she claimed he was always his priority. Hogwash.
And yet, he still offered to compromise with her. But she was not one to compromise. She tried favors and meeting his brothers as a way to ingratiate herself to him, then abandoned that project when she couldn’t mold him into who she wanted, and never bothered with them since. Her next proposal was moving physically away from friends and family. These are not compromises. These are asking for his capitulation. And it’s not clear why he should be the one to do the work to offer a middle ground, only to be spurned, as happened before our eyes in the show. She was much one for compromises.
Lastly, note that despite being made to feel lonely, he does not blame her or make her feel wrong about her profession. It would be nice if she could extend him the same courtesy, and not turn what in the first episodes she understood to be a difference of opinions into him having objectively wrong values.
See also this thread, which contains some further elaborations on the topic.
He definitely does not think of her as a criminal. He, correctly, views her actions of defending her family as heroic. Should she have just allowed the man that was assaulting them to kill them? No, he would have done the same, as he confessed to the son of the man she killed.
Of course, if we mean “criminal” in terms of the other activities, the key part is that she really worked to guard his back. Maybe the only “wronged” party is the one they got in the beginning.
Re: their marriage being a mistake… it might not have been a mistake, for example, had the wife tried to see his friends through his or Ji An’s eyes (or the public’s)… the saddest part is that we see how exceptional that group and their relationship is, and she does not, really. She is missing out big time.
Two points:
That clearly doesn’t matter to DH. And by the end, everything was okay legally.
Think of how he defended her at any point about his past. The key thing here is that she always had his back. She was the opposite of his wife: the latter was supposed to always have his back, but betrayed him for his worst enemy and conspired to get him out of a job. Ji An was hired by said enemy, but saw DH for who he was and chose to stand by his side. Unwavering loyal.
I don’t think DH particularly minds that she was spying on him, considering that if it had not been for her running damage control, he would have been ruined. As for criminality (I cannot help but find the concept of a “criminal personality” a funny phrasing), she was given extenuating circumstances (her grandma), which given the importance DH gives to family are certainly right up his alley. Compare that to his wife being the sort of person that would betray him so horrendously, even conspiring to get him out of a job, in order to divorce him for someone that was trying to fire him. DH is sure to find the latter much more revolting, considering the situation.
The show clearly points to her being a more decent person that the wife/boss pair, and personally, however she might look down on herself, I agree that she was, 100% (wife says that seeing her giving her all to protect DH made her feel even worse), basically pointing to the fact that she was just in worse circumstances. She did what she did under duress, to protect her grandma and make it so the two of them could survive, while they certainly didn’t do what they did to protect their family. Anything to do with “family” and DH is onboard, remember he said he would be ready to kill for his family, and to prove the point, we see him use the hammer at the apartment of the guy he threatens into giving his brothers a gift basket.
More importantly, thorough the show thanks to getting to know DH she is changing and this is why she turns from evil boss and helps him. She would have been willing to be on the run forever just to spare him the humiliation of having the affair known (which, as per the scene in the building of the gift basket guy, and as per the words he tells Ji An when he communicates to her that he is going to tell the truth, matters to him because he does not want those he loves to suffer because they feel pity for him -same reason he tells Ji An that he will live a good life, so she doesn’t have to suffer due to feeling sorry for him).
For that matter, if that was any obstacle his wife wouldn’t really be in a good position, since she knew of Park’s case and of her lover’s shady involvement with Ji An to conspire against her husband, and she never planned to report or look into this. Not criminal, but certainly questionable.
So well-said, MariaF. It would be immoral and indecent of Dong Hoon and Ji An to have an affair while he were still married. But after the time skip? When it seems like the show has brought Yoon Hee and Dong Hoon to the conclusion they’ve been foreshadowing throughout multiple episodes (divorce)? A free Dong Hoon getting re-married to Ji An would not in any way compromise Dong Hoon’s decency and goodness.
Love what you said here: DH can depend on her in any situation.
So true! Great insight.
So, if he has lost his head over her, she deserves it more than anybody else.
Ha, Yes! His goodness would find even more fulfillment in their relationship, since that’s what she loved about him in the first place.
I actually don’t think it would be immoral or indecent, I wouldn’t have had any ethical or emotional problem with that after what his wife was doing/did to him. Someone that is not willing to show you any loyalty does not deserve any in return, and she was the one that broke that bond. The piece of paper is just the piece of paper -a contract, not a relationship between people-. But from Dong Hoon’s point of view, I agree that he likely didn’t want to cheat on her, or to do so with someone that was effectively his subordinate (though that is obviously not a problem in kdramas, given most plots). Plus, from the way he thought of his wife’s well being even when confronting her lover (taking him to task about not wanting to marry her), and the kindness he showed her, even nursing her back to health, when he knew that she had cheated on him and tried to get him out of a job, maybe he had lingering feelings. But I agree that Ji An deserves and fits him much better: same attitude towards family, willing to be in his circle, that love her in return, and always having his back.
I actually would have liked some more clarity about the relationship with the wife for that same reason. But they obviously intentionally made it ambiguous to imagine everyone to see into it what they wanted.
I agree that Dong Hoon’s tendency to bottle everything up and apologize, rather than confront her, because he wanted to support her and not bother her, was at play. When he felt abandoned by her not being home, to be supporting, rather than bothering her about it he relied more on his friends. I don’t think that I judge this the same way as her always questioning his commitments and gaslighting him, putting all the blame on him, even after they both knew of the affair. Not to mention he was the one willing to compromise, and even after acknowledging she was at fault as well (“I can see how you could see the situation that way”) he was the one offering to compromise, which she spurned without offering a compromise of her own re: her work hours, despite having been the one to raise the issue and attack him first.
I must say that moving to a different neighborhood wouldn’t have helped. Notice how she does not have a friend group (even outside of the neighborhood -after all her lover doesn’t live there, and they live in a city with modern transportation-, like Dong Hoon’s friends from work). Had they moved, he would have just suffered at having been separated by people that were central in his life, but he wanted to be part of a community, while she wanted to monopolize his attention (and not only his, remember her first scene with her lover was a fight about him not calling her and her always waiting for his calls) and basically to make it all about her and the kid. As for the compromise, he was the one that offered (and I believe that with how accomodating he was, he would have done so any time, as he did when it was most unfair for her to ask -when they both knew she had slept with his worst enemy, and she could have shown a shred of compassion and understanding for him not wanting to be around her and leaning more on his support group, and after the had acknowledged that she was not home and she had abandoned him, and could see how he got that impression-).
But the central key was always that she had bought a cat and was asking it to bark. She knew who he was, but she was biding her time and waiting to be able to mold him into who she wanted, and when he didn’t consent to change core parts of his character and values, she resented him for it, the thought she had no right to expect that of him, and of how massively unfair she was being towards him, never coming to mind… compare this to him putting up with her late hours, etc. and even doing the housework before she came home and not even turning on the TV, and putting up with her coming home late without saying anything, in order to support her -he never asked her to change for him, she pretended he did-.
Regarding the “failure” of the marriage, I would agree or disagree depending on what is meant here. If we are making an analogy, we have a dying patient and someone shoots them. The culprit is pretty clear. She was the one that had the affair with his worst enemy (and tried to get him out of a job). This is like an airplane where the consuming fuel is the fact she married him without accepting him, and trying to change him, or them having different expectations, if you will. The choice was then between a regular, soft landing (her giving his circle a chance, or asking for a divorce) and a nosedive into the ground (her betraying him with his worst enemy and conspiring to get him out of a job).
I don’t think that this is fifty/fifty, though. She married him fully knowing about his values (anyone that spent ten seconds with him would be aware he values friends and family). She did favors to his family and met with his brothers in order to get Dong Hoon on his side and get him to distance himself from friends and family (think about Ji An’s boyfriend trying to distance her from Gran because of his possessiveness/insecurity). She basically wanted to mold him into who she wanted, and resented him for refusing to comply, rather than realizing that he didn’t sign up for this and what she was doing was massively unfair. She then basically stopped trying to put up the pretense and routinely spurned his attempts to involve her in his family activities (episode 1, episode 7), which disappointed him and caused him pain (only to, of course, blame him for being there without her).
He never tried to change who she was. He felt alone and abandoned with her long working hours, but never complained and always did everything to support her (doing the housework before she comes back from work, not even turning no the TV, and just sucking it up and relying more on his friends when she comes home late and he feels abandoned in an empty house… plus, he was treated shortly/impatiently and always remained civil, and he was the only one offering to compromise, when she had admitted her responsibility in starting the vicious cycle of detachment -“I can see how you would see it that way”-, and was the one who raised the issue/attacked him about it -only to backpedal-… but she spurned his offer and never once offered a compromise on her side -coming home earlier, etc.-).
I would also point out her first scene with her lover, where she fought with him over the fact that he didn’t carry around a second phone, questioning his commitment (which was something she often did with Dong Hoon, despite not really having any led to stand on). This was eerily reminiscent of her experience with Dong Hoon, and generally indicated a needy/clingy/contolling/possessive attitude, insecurities and need for constant validation. This to me indicated a pattern: it could have very well been a scene from her and Dong Hoon’s marriage, and this is likely how they would have ended up some times down the road, had they actually married.
I personally shared more of her point of view, but didn’t agree with her turning a matter of perspective into a personal slight (which in the episodes with her lover where she described Dong Hoon as “a kind and reliable, if a bit lonesome” person most women would be happy with, and seemed to acknowledge it was a difference in perspective. I would have liked him to push her on a few thing:
I hope/think the “better solution” here is ironic. I also don’t like the implication, because during the apology he made it perfectly clear that unhappiness and cheating. There was a fundamental expectation of respect, and from the serial cheating to the conspiring to get him out of a job, she failed to meet it spectacularly. The fundamental fact is that they were both unhappy (him more so than her, given his almost suicidal look down the Han river from the bridge), but did not cheat, he respected her that way. He would have granted her a divorce if she was unhappy with him, and she wanted one during the affair, and was ready to accept one after the apology.
They didn’t really go into why she cheated, and with his worst enemy, or maybe they did and we were not show. We don’t see flashback of when and why the affair started. Then again, we only see fragments of the conversation, not the whole thing. Interestingly, Ji An listened in, but in the final episodes asked “why did you cheat on Dong Hoon” anyway. The wife responded that she could come up with a thousand excuses/rationalizations, but no real/true reason. Which I liked, because “no reason” is better than the writer making up a dumb one.
Re: the too young argument… I completely agree with you, it was completely silly, and I am convinced part of the reason they were so “fuzzy” with Ji An and Dong Hoon’s relationship is related to the viewing public’s immaturity when considering the age gap issue (thankfully with shows like Secret Love Affair we might see such an immature tendency in the public go away -thought I would have liked to see this in a non-adulterous, well adjusted couple-).
Also elaborated in this response and in the episode 11&12 open thread/spoiler sections.
Also relatively more condensed TLDR in this post.
And this and this posts contain elaborations re: DH’s willingness to compromise, the actions where he showed his care.
Consider this post explaining my perplexities at the fifty/fifty responsibilities split and this post on Dong Hoon specifically.
To clarify, by this I mean that she could ask, though being such an important part of his character, essentially his central value, one wonders at the appropriateness of the question, because then one might rightfully ask why she is in love with him at all, given that she wants to change a central part of who he is as a person, his most important value. That said, as I write above, she had no right to expect him to agree, and given the nature of the request, it would have not made much sense for him to.
Particularly, I would say, given that the whole thing was driven by her inability to cope with her own insecurities. And that she was the one that chose to marry him while knowing this about him, and pretending to go along, while she was biding her time, trying to mold him into who she wanted him to be.
Had they both been honest from the beginning regarding their expectations, they would have never married, which, barring the kid from the equation, would have probably been a net positive (or maybe not… I am operating under the assumption that they are not together in the end, but of course, the finale being open ended they could very well be).
Just pointing out that she married him while fully knowing about his values (anyone that spent ten minutes with him would be aware of them), while at the same time acting as she went along with it (doing “favors” to his family -thinking he “owed” it to her to fundamentally change his character in return, compare them to his brother paying with all his money for JA’s grandma’s funeral, completely disinterested-, meeting his brothers), while really biding her time, waiting to mold him into who she wanted and distance himself from friends and family.
In other words, between the two of them, only one entered the relationship wanting to change something core to the other’s personality and values.
In term of general flaws, her clinginess/possessiveness/ controlling nature/insecurity and need for approval, which she also manifested in the first fight with her lover -first scene in episode one-, which was very similar to scenes we saw with her and Dong Hoon, is a pretty big red flag. There is a pattern here, and it’s probably something better left to a therapist to address, rather than a spouse. Of course, the fact that he was never willing to chat on her, while she turned out to be someone that would have been willing to betray him in such a complete and horrific fashion, is a big character difference, and I would call it a character flaw, to say the least.
In other words, she bought a red fish and wanted it to fly and sing like a bird. And resented it when it didn’t.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Dong Hoon did the housework before she came home for her, because he wanted to support her in her work (one of the many gestures, which she took for granted and never appreciated, because nothing short of distancing himself from longtime friends and family, essentially from everyone he loved to the exclusion of her -and the kid, though if she stopped to think whether he would be better of without his connection to his extended family, she might want to think again-).
I would bet good money it wouldn’t have lasted even if they had married, giving it was already starting to replicate her marriage with Dong Hoon, with the adjustments of the case (they are seeing each other for a year and not living together). Maybe she would want to reflect on her fight in the first scene they had together in the first episode, because her going after him for his lack of commitment, because he wouldn’t carry a second phone, is eerily reminiscent of such fights she had with Dong Hoon, and probably indicative of some issue that she would be better off discussing with her therapist than with her spouse.
I also don’t like how this is connected causally to her unhappiness, because as DH correctly points out, basic respect dictates that she could have asked a divorce, as she was intending to do anyway, and as he would have granted and certainly preferred to the alternative, and as she was ready for him to ask anyway after he realized he didn’t love her anymore (not that we are sure whether it happened or not in the finale).
Unhappiness is obviously not a sufficient condition (DH does not cheat), the missing ingredient probably being not having a shred of respect for your partner. For that matter, when JH asks her why she cheated, she answers that she could give her a thousand excuses/rationalizations, but she had no real/true reason. Which sounds about right.
She should have divorced him as soon as she realized that she wouldn’t be able to mold him into who she wished (and instead of resenting him for it, she should have also realized that she had no right to mold him into who she wanted, either).
She could of course ask, but not threaten, manipulate or coerce. Though, given this was such a central part of his character, it begs the question of why did she love him in the first place, since she wants to change a central part of who he is.
I mean, there are questions one feels are more or less appropriate to ask: for example, I wouldn’t think that him asking her to abandon her career because he wants her to spend more time with him at home would be appropriate. I would put her trying to distance him from the people he loves the most due to her own insecurities in the not appropriate category.
I would consider this particularly disgusting, because she is essentially talking about pretending that he changes his fundamental values simply because she feels possessive and insecure. And we know how valuable the relationships in the neighborhood are. Compare this with Ji An sharing the same values around family and wanting to be reborn in the neighborhood.
She has no right to expect him to necessarily agree with her, while being the one that married him knowing what his values are, pretending to go along while in reality trying to distance him from friends and family (rather than genuinely want to be part of them, which, as Ji An taught as, is pretty easy to do, as long as you are truly willing to be within their circle. All in all, I found it sad that she never sees what Ji An, Dong Hoon, presumably his kid (video call with family) and we, the viewers, see in them.
A small extract from the original review on this site sums up the point about the dynamic. It fails to mention her issues about possessiveness and insecurity which to me are evident from the episode with the lover in the first chapter:
See this thread as well as this one, but my general point is that:
Another “healing” theme that weaves through Episodes 14 to 16 is how willing and eager everyone is to “save” and help the other person. If anyone followed the Man v Drama MM recaps, he discussed this in his Ep 15 video (part 1) and it was brilliant.
Here’s a sampling:
Ji An is running away to protect herself from the consequences of what she and Ki Bum did to Director Park Dong Un, but another reason is to protect Dong Hoon’s promotion. (The other Managing Directors know he’s been closely connected to her, and among other things, she doesn’t want to taint DH’s reputation). She also tells Do Joon Young that she doesn’t want to get caught and have to expose DH and YH’s affair, because she knows that would hurt DH. She’s willing to be on the run forever for Dong Hoon’s good.
Dong Hoon is willing to expose the affair – risking being humiliated – in order to save Ji An from being on the run.
Yoon Hee is willing to expose the affair – exposing herself as a cheating wife – in order to save Ji An.
Kwang Il is a changed man after he hears the recordings. He sees how Dong Hoon and Ji An have talked about him with compassion and understanding, and this sparks his humanity. He finds a way to send the USBs to Dong Hoon, and in this way validates Ji An’s legal argument against Do Joon Young. He gives up millions of won in order to help Ji An and Dong Hoon.
Chairman Jang asks Director Park Dong Un to drop charges against Ji An, saving her from jail. For someone as disgraced as Park Dong Un was, this must have been difficult for him. But he submitted and did it.
If we go back to the beginning of My Mister and think about how the characters started out, it’s quite the difference! Back then, Ji An was actively working to get Dong Hoon fired, Kwang Il said a couple times he wanted to send Ji An to jail, and Yoon Hee was cheating with Do Joon Young and didn’t care if Dong Hoon ended up divorced and fired.
At the end of the show, to see them all trying to protect each other – through making real sacrifices – is stunning and poignant.
beautifully described – warms the heart and truly touching to see those progressions.
There’s a lot being said about the ending and the nature of the relationship between JA and DH, but I would just like to write some words about the funeral, which is most probably my favorite sequence in the entire show.
I generally dislike funerals in kdramas. They often feel tacked on as a plot point to evoke sympathy. But the way it’s done here is so uplifting. From Sang Hoon’s decision to use his money and connections to liven up the funeral (What an amazing callback to what seemed like a throwaway joke episodes ago) to the football scene spliced with Grandma’s parting words to the last scene where Ji An runs to the bus … it’s magical.
It’s a sad parting for Ji An, but it also feels like a new beginning. She sees that there are people that are there to support and care for her, that she is able to integrate into a community. Through it, she is able to appreciate and internalize Grandma’s parting words, which reflect the importance of opening up and relationships in our lives. It’s a really powerful message that the show has been building towards throughout Ji An’s journey, and this was just such a nice way to end off her character arc.
Thanks for reminding us! The way they alternate the soccer scenes with Grandma’s admonition to be happy is so creative and beautiful.
@Pixaiated – Grandmother’s whole death and funeral sequence are possibly my favorite scenes, in a long list of exceptional scenes, in the drama. As you’ve described, they draw together so many themes from the show. Not in a tidy way, but as if this is where it’s all naturally been heading. Not the death, but the life that’s coming out of it. Packed with emotion, but not sentimental. Actually a bit jarring in the realistic portrayal of loss and grief, and all of the mixed emotions that accompany the end of a beloved life, for those up close to it and those standing at a distance. Masterful.
Hi everyone, and thanks to KFG for giving us this great opportunity to re-watch and discuss this masterpiece of a show. You expressed your thoughts so beautifully and poetically, KFG!
The way the show develops Ji An’s character, from an isolated girl existing on scraps and caring for a disabled grandmother, to a mature woman who loves others and embraces who she is, is just beautiful. And the way Dong Hoon “wakes up” and learns to think about himself is also so touching. Then the way Dong Hoon and Ji An protect each other, fight for each other, and love each other is so powerful.
When I first watched MM, I thought, “That was great and I never need to see it again.” Then I started reading about the show and the ending, and realized I had missed a TON of symbols and details. So I watched it again, and again (ad nauseam).
I’m a data person, and even though I never saw a romantic loveline coming the first time I watched MM, now I see too many clues that (for me) are too hard to ignore.
We all know Ji An has expressed her liking/ love for Dong Hoon many times, either to him or to others. She is always honest about it. From Episode 8 on, in almost every single episode she verbalizes that she likes Dong Hoon.
We could take this as hero worship or a crush throughout the rest of the show. BUT when she sees him in the coffee shop after the time skip, her face is full of emotion. I can see she still loves Dong Hoon, and that she has just seen the man that has been on her heart even when she was in Busan. That, to me, is the way the scene is directed, acted, and shot….and as we always say, this PDnim doesn’t put things in for no reason. In my mind, then, Ji An’s love for Dong Hoon has remained constant.
Dong Hoon has been the wild card. We never quite know what he’s thinking when Ji An repeatedly tells him she likes him. He expresses his concern for Ji An, and he protects and defends her. However, his actions show necessary restraint. Whether this restraint is because he’s married – or whether he is actually repressing his feelings for Ji An, is a wild card. Until the final episode. Here are the clues that get me, now, when I watch the final half of Ep 16:
When Ji An tells him she’s going to Busan, he asks her, “Why are you going so far away?” As his mother has already said, if the man says he’s hungry, it means he’s starving. So for Dong Hoon to ask Ji An why she’s going so far away means he’s feeling it; he does not want her to go so far away.
He is annoyed when Ki Hoon asks if he’s heard from Ji An. It seems like it’s been on his mind already – why isn’t she calling me?
He has called Yoon Hee his chib saram (wife) in multiple episodes. In the coffee shop scene, he calls her ae omma (my kid’s mom). To me, this contrast is significant and important. If YH were still DH’s wife, he would have no need to suddenly refer to her as something different. Netflix’s subtitles are wrong, in that they translate it to say “my wife and kid”. Viki has the correct subtitles (“my kid and his mother”), and you can clearly hear him say ae omma if you turn the volume all the way up.
I believe the three pictures of Yoon Hee and Ji Seok are on his desk to firmly establish Yoon Hee’s presence in America (and not with Dong Hoon). Gone also is the old family photo he used to have on his desk. DH and YH are on warm terms. But to me, the contrast is again important. The family photo is gone, and Yoon Hee seems to have been with Ji Seok in America for a while now. This also seems to point to a separation/ divorce.
When Dong Hoon sees Ji An at the coffee shop, he holds her hand for 32 seconds, and leaves quite the imprint on her hand! (He was holding on rather tightly, for 32 seconds, enough to leave an imprint when he let go.) If he were married, I don’t think he would do this. And if he was just happy to see an old friend – one that told him repeatedly she liked him – he also wouldn’t “lead her on” and hold on so tightly for so long. I’m making an assumption here that he wouldn’t do this 🙂 but I think it’s a reasonable assumption.
He has to look away shyly after Ji An asks him to dinner. I think everyone would agree that he’s happy that he and JA will get together and chat in the future. But in my mind, this shy smile is something “extra”, something that is written, directed, and shot in a way that implies Dong Hoon is really happy that JA is asking him to dinner.
The last clue is the voiceover at the end. Throughout the show Dong Hoon has called her Lee Ji An, Lee Ji An-ssi or Ji An-ssi. For him to call her Ji An at the end – and only Ji An – is another contrast. I’m not Korean so I missed that detail my first watch. But I read about this here: https://givemeslippers.wordpress.com/2018/07/01/when-dong-hoon-called-her-%ec%a7%80%ec%95%88-ji-an/
It seems that to address her as only Ji An implies a more intimate relationship between the two of them. If he were still married, I assume he wouldn’t allow himself to address her so intimately. And if he were just a mentor or father-figure, I believe the same – he wouldn’t address her so intimately.
I know some will disagree with my conclusions :). I understand that taken individually, each “breadcrumb” is not that significant. But taken together….I think a reasonable case can be made that after the time skip, Dong Hoon is a free man and is ready to pursue the person that he has always wanted close by, the person he is so happy to see now.
One more thread that weaves throughout the show: every time Dong Hoon and Ji An eat at “their” restaurant, there is at least one other male-female couple there. And shown are only couples, not individuals or larger groups of diners. This happens in Episodes 6, 7 (twice), 8, and 12. When Dong Hoon is there alone in Episodes 10 and 15, there are also couples in the background. So the show has put couples – and only couples – in the background of this restaurant in six episodes. That doesn’t seem like a random thing; it seems to be another subtle hint, straight from PDnim’s mind, that there is a loveline here.
(The only time the restaurant is shown without any couples is in Episode 16 when Dong Hoon and Ji An have their farewell dinner. In that scene, they are the sole patrons in the restaurant.)
Why is all this so important? 🙂 🙂
To me, MM is one of the greatest love stories ever. Dong Hoon and Ji An are two people that society and we would have never put together in the beginning, due to a significant age gap, differences in social standing, and differences in circumstances.
We watch them slowly get to know each other, act for the good of each other, and help heal each other and themselves. We also see them look for each other, long for each other’s company, and run to each other. The show develops their relationship to the point that after the time skip, if they decide to pursue loving each other in all ways, it makes sense that they could be happy together.
I never saw that coming – that I would root for seemingly-disparate Dong Hoon and Ji An to come together in all ways at the end – but now I see clues of it all through the show, and I think the show is even more beautiful than the first time I watched it.
(Sorry this is so long!)
I’d like to add a scene that got me into thinking DH’s feelings definitely has strong romantic undertones. When he was singing karaoke to celebrate his promotion at Jung Hee’s bar in ep 14, he was singing a song about missing someone, and the show kept showing Ji An to us. This was the time after he found out Ji An had already quit the company, and that he could no longer contact her through her old number. So the restraint he’s been trying to keep has started to crack. Such singing tropes are very typical in dramas of all kinds, in most cultures, and are mostly used to signify romantic longing. I believe the picture I captured below from that sequence speaks a thousand words.
Oh yes! Thanks for adding that. I also thought that was strange the first time I watched it. Now when I put that scene together with their farewell phone-booth phone call, I can see that DH is profoundly sad that she’s gone. That he would choose that song on the night he is supposed to be celebrating his promotion speaks to how much she’s on his mind instead.
Wanted to clarify one thing 🙂 : Some believe that the final voiceover (where he calls her Ji An) seems to be a future conversation between Dong Hoon and Ji An.
in a short span of time we all watched the 2 most amazing korean dramas ever secret love affair and my mister – it will be difficult to match it.
first, a few notes on the last 2 episodes – the culmination.
there is nothing more truthful as “the truth will set you free”. – ja finally comes clean under the gentle direction of dh. this is the biggest mile stone in her short 21 years of lonely miserable existence, this is also the cleansing of her consciousness, this is the cutting off the shackles of her sins, this is her rebirth. the way she performs it, the way the drama presents it is simply rewarding all our senses. there is something in her facial expressions, in her eyes especially, in her body language that is totally mesmerizing.
i also loved in particular all her scenes and interactions with her grandmother (who i thought to be another jewel of an actress) – they succeeded to portray a love like an eternal flame, going into many future life times, (if existing). this kind of feeling starts with the big moon lighting their journey, and then the last scene that we see with them in the garden of the nursing home, with white flower petals softly falling all over them, like the first show, enveloping them with total silence of granny’s quiet world, leading them to the end of their joint experience on this earth. there is so much all blanketing beauty and tranquility, i could feel myself getting enwrapped by this.
then there is this tragic and sad story of kwang-il and ja, and his redemption. so in the scene where ja tells about her history with him, we see on the screen her as a little girl all bloody, helpless, just gotten beat- up by kwang-il’s dad, she is leaning on a wall and next to her is a small boy with a bloody nose, also seems to be getting the same cruel treatment. kwang-il carries ja and the little boy follows them. we know she did not have a brother, but it looks to me that this child is her best friend, the video game guy and her partner in crime. it must be somebody very close to her, so it seems like they really grew up together. i only noticed it and realized it on my second watch. amazing the details that suddenly come into focus when a drama is rewatched.
all the characters, actors are so wonderful in this drama with no exception (really rare), and i can go one by one in sheer wonder of their work, but i want to just bring up the 3 brothers and their love for each other, who totally conquered my heart, each one in their own way. i think the scene of the oldest brother’s dream, where they are all dressed in identical black suits, with identical black ray ban glasses, with vine glasses and smiles splattered all over their happy faces, by the swimming pool of a fancy hotel, jumping in the air, and then later driving in a fancy red car – this is the image of these 3 brothers that will symbolize for me this amazing “TRIO”, etched in my memory.
and in conclusion, this drama led us into a true heart exploration, full of and sprinkled with unforgettable heart warming and heart breaking moments. this is a drama where i truly felt being in the middle of it together with them, i felt honored to have met the profoundly decent and warmest human dh, the wild prickly cactus ja, flowering in the middle of the scorching desert of her life and all in front of our eyes, the pitiful soul of the bad-guy touched by this flower and being able to shed a tear, the spectacular bond of the 3 brothers, with my desire to simply give each of them a hug of encouragement on their life journeys – each so special, yet so real, so alive, simply human, and of course the entire community hanging out in the bar with the charming jh.
thank you all for being with me on this trip, and especially our wonderful host kfangirl.
kamsahamidah.
Beautifully said, Eda!
this damn computer changed it himself. with white flower petals softly falling all over them, like the first show, – this should be snow, not show.
Beautiful encapsulation of the show, thank you!
First of all – many thanks for making this a group watch (I am very sure that I would not have watched it otherwise) and many thanks for all the insightful comments. I enjoyed many of the comments in here and the other episodes but I couldn’t comment much as I binge-watched it in Dec holidays and I didn’t know how to write in without the spoilers. The other reason is it was a bit too heavy as a story for me personally to go back to refresh the already watched episodes and pitch in the comments accordingly. I waited out until this week instead.
Just some of my points to add-in: (feel free to disagree)
I really think that DH has separated (may or may not be divorced as yet but separated for sure) from his ex-wife. The photos are just there to remind him of his kid and his kid’s mother. And maybe he might remove his ex-wife photo once he starts seeing someone else. The drama ends where he is single and enjoying his business and life without all the heaviness that was wearing him down all the while. I really don’t think he was happy in the marriage after a few years but kept at it because of kid, his mother, work, money aspects etc. Also it defeats the whole purpose of the redemption he had if he had to spend his life with her again after a few years if at all she comes back from the US. I am here not judging her in anyway for what she did to him but just saying that they no longer work as couple. As a married woman I know that marriages are not easy for working woman in stressful jobs like hers and is a work in progress every single day and I don’t think Ji-Ah has it in her anymore for this marriage. Honestly they both are better off without each other. No problem.
And I don’t think that he would ever date or get-together with Ji-An. Maybe they might come together in a different lifetime but in this lifetime and story – they are just there for each other as good friends/soul mates or whatever it is without the usual cliched romance. I personally also prefer it this way. Of course he is now lot more free to meet her or text her or call her as all the awkwardness/office dynamics is gone. I also think that DH is too nice of a man to date a young woman like Ji-An who is just stepping into the beauties of life and he might prefer a much less life-experienced man for her. In any case this is my interpretation and this is what makes the story very beautiful for me.
Redemption – I credit the writer/director for ensuring that every character (except Do-Joon maybe) including the loan shark and the Buddhist monk completely redeemed themselves by the end of it all. This is why I loved this story a lot as its very hopeful and positive to see that. (I know many people in my life – old and young – who have done horrible things but yet to understand the meaning of even the word “redemption”).
Self-Care – Through DH – the message of self-care and one own’s happiness and boundaries with family was put forth very subtly. The whole drama would not have happened if DH had prioritised his wants and needs both at work and at home (whether those needs are right or wrong is a different story altogether but at the end of the day it is his needs). For me the most meaningful scene was when he visits the Buddhist monk friend and the monk spells it out for him so beautifully. Also kudos for bringing in Buddhist undertones wherever required as it made the drama profound for me as a practising Buddhist.
Brothers – I thoroughly enjoyed this part of the story on the brothers and especially it was amusing to see the elder brother be so obsessed with funeral gatherings.
Take care everyone and I really hope to revisit the open threads discussion on this story after a few more years to read more in depth and in leisure.
I don’t remember who said that to have a successful marriage, it’s not enough for a husband and a wife to stare into each other’s eyes. They must look in the same direction.
DH and his Yoon-hee haven’t been looking in the same direction for a long time, if ever. I believe they finally realized that and just let each other go, for both their sakes. I believe the photos in DH’s office are supposed to tell us that his son and Yoon-hee are happy in the US (DH told that friend at the cafe that they are planning to stay there for at least a few more years). And DH is happy and free in SK. There is no pretend “happy family” anymore, and no pain.
I realize that the show’s ending allows different interpretations.
I wrote about my take on the events in this show before (maybe too much), and now I’m at the point, where I don’t want to doubt my opinion any more. I see what I see.
Everything I’ve seen in the show, and especially the ending, tells me that the old life is gone, that marriage is gone, and that repressed, miserable, “must follow the rules and please and take care of everyone” DH is gone, gone, gone.
DH told JA that she brought him back to life, and I believe that’s exactly what’s happened.
The eldest brother seems to be in a process of reconciliation with his wife. The youngest brother finally started writing again. Yoo-ra periodically stops by the bar, so she is still around. In the end, both of them will get their women, so to speak.
DH will get his, and it’s not going to Yoon-hee.
I don’t believe in coincidences, especially in a show of such high quality. So there is no way it’s a coincidence, that in the last scene of the show DH and JA are meeting and making plans to see each other again, while Yoon-hee is thousands of miles away, in a different country, with a return date that is years away.
DH and JA lived through too many miserable experiences to not recognize the uniqueness and rarity of their bond. The bond that brings so much comfort and joy to both of them. DH and JA look in the same direction and see the world and life the same way. They’d be fools to let each other go, and they are no fools.
I’m glad that the show has such an optimistic, uplifting ending. Even the loan shark gets to be a normal human being again!
I hope many more people see this show, because that’s what this show can give them – hope.
“I don’t believe in coincidences, especially in a show of such high quality.” is probably my strongest reason for believing that the marriage is done. This is a show with consistently strong writing throughout. Ending with the pair remaining married simply does not make narrative sense unless there was sufficient build up / reconciliation, and there clearly wasn’t.
There’s also a few lines throughout the show that really highlight this. I am paraphrasing most of these based off memory, so pardon me if they are slightly off.
1) The barkeeper at DH & JA’s bar, whose situation of getting cheated on is similar for whatever reason (coincidence? probably not..) – “It may take five or ten years, but the pain of the affair will always be there, and at some point you wont be able to bear it any longer”.
2) DH’s Mom – “As long as a couple is loyal to each other, it’s fine.”
3) DH to YH during their confrontation, in response to her saying that she’s ok with staying married for the sake of his mom and their son – “I’m not thinking of making it harder on you just to make it easier for myself to live”. The implication here is that he’s clearly not planning to stay in that marriage. The next line adds further context – “How should we end this? I don’t know where to start.”
None of these lines make sense for an ending where they remain married, unless there was some sort of conversation between the two of them that at the very least addresses these points and show a willingness to put in the work to resolve these issues at some point – which never happened.
all the points that you are bringing up are valid, no doubt. the only thing that i must disagree is your ending “which never happened”. yes, it did not happen during the period the drama shows, but this is not the end of their lives, and we are all speculating about what will their future bring. i personally am not on any one side, i am leaving it open, and i am ok with it. in life there is no such a thing is NEVER. more unbelievable things do happen, is it farfetched that dh and yh will end up together, yes, it is. too much pain is a heavy weight to carry. but…people get back together even after a decade of being apart. we do not know what they did have together when they originally fell for each other. somewhere and somehow it fell apart, and from the point of view of the current situation, there is not much in common between them, except their son and may be family, and the years of being together. i do detect a sense of warmth and care in their way of relating to each other, making efforts not to hurt one another and even comfort in a way. but it might not and probably is not enough to sustain a marriage. life is an open book yet to be written.
with the same reasoning i am not sure that dh and ja are on the way to “marital bliss” or something of this sort. though most of the show i was under the impression that their bonding or relationship was not of a romantic nature. towards the end it became more clear that ja is really feeling a very strong attraction to dh, and it feels more of a romantic nature. but she’s very young and not experienced. her feelings might be a cocktail of father that she never had, an older brother, a protector, and finally, yes, a man. i am not sure that she has the ability to sort it all out, but it really does not matter, it is all good and i am happy for her.
in regards to dh, i COMPLETELY agree with PP’s take on it, (the comment below) and i do feel that dh sometime in the future will meet a woman, that will take over his heart and mind. (at least i hope) as his monk friend said, he can start winning from now on. and it is already happening, and i am super glad for him too. it is just the beginning. and if some of you are right, and he ends up choosing ja, more power to him. i am ok either way.
“which never happened”. yes, it did not happen during the period the drama shows, but this is not the end of their lives, and we are all speculating about what will their future bring…. in life there is no such a thing is NEVER.
Yes, I agree: anything can happen in real life. Except this is not real life. It’s a tv show.
And, as unique and as amazing as it is, “My Mister” is a Korean drama that follows certain “rules of engagement.”
So, while many things in it can be interpreted differently, they didn’t “happen”. They were put into the drama to tell us something.
For example, this show never even bothered with telling us the beginning of DH’s and Yoon-hee’s love story. We just see them in an unhappy and unhealthy marriage. Nor there is a clear explanation of how they resolved their marital troubles. Well, actually we know how these troubles were resolved: Yoon-hee got shipped to a distant part of the world to stay there for years.
Another example is a scene, where DH hit JA.
Quite a few people here argued that it would be totally out of character for DH to have romantic feelings for JA.
DH is surrounded by people who know his character very well: his mother, his brothers, the bar owner and his other friends. If we told them that DH hit a young girl so hard, she fell to the ground, would they have believed us? I doubt it. So, what was that about?
Also, the last still of the show is a picture of DH’s hand, holding JA’s hand. How significant is that?
she’s very young and not experienced. her feelings might be a cocktail of father that she never had, an older brother, a protector, and finally, yes, a man. i am not sure that she has the ability to sort it all out,
I don’t think the show creators ever portrayed JA as a confused teenaged girl, who couldn’t tell a young prince on a white horse from a daddy. I believe she was very aware of the reality and her own feelings. I’d argue she actually demonstrated more understanding and awareness than DH.
I could make many more arguments and give many more examples, but I don’t think it’s necessary. I think it’s great that viewers have different opinions. I want to embrace and celebrate the complexity and ambiguity of the show. Certain lack of clarity is not a flaw here. It’s part of the design.
Certain lack of clarity is not a flaw here. totally! we can agree on that.
Yes, I definitely agree with this. I really loved how My Mister had pretty much zero instances of voice-over narration where we get to hear the inner thoughts of the characters, which is so rare and refreshing in kdramas.
MariaF, your arguments are to the point.
maria, i understand what you are saying and the “rules of engagement” in a korean drama that you are bringing up, and it is all true. but… the only frame of reference i have, (and any other person involved in a production of a drama or any other form of art) is LIFE itself. even when it is created with complete fantasy, it still relies on our human experiences derived from life + our imaginations, which by the way also are rooted and growing out of life as we know it and perceive it. that is why and how this drama allows for as many interpretations as our various life experiences. and it is interesting and beautiful.
I’ll just echo MariaF’s points below that yes, anything can happen in real life. The point that I am making is that this is a story where the conclusion should naturally flow from what was shown in the writing. Of course, this doesn’t always happen, but I trust the writing here. I just don’t think having them remain married at the end makes sense from that standpoint.
Regarding whether JA and DH actually do start a romantic relationship, that’s a separate point which I agree is less clear. What’s clear to me is that the show has ended with the two of them in a much better place, with them being free to explore, understand and accept the emotions / feelings that they have for each other, whatever they are.
pixaiated and maria, i understand your points about “writing” and being a “korean” drama, with different societal attitudes, but isn’t the writing done by a human? aren’t korean’s humans, with the same kind of blood and emotions circulating through them like me and you? so can’t we consider their humanity, in addition to what was their intent?
actually, truly objective art does not mean that the viewer or reader has to understand the artist’s intent, it is WHAT does this art do to YOU, what kind of emotions, thoughts, changes happen in your heart and mind due to this particular piece of art.
It depends on the type of art and on the viewer.
When I’m watching a show (a good show), I’m interested in a story that creators of that show are trying to tell. I want to watch these shows or movies through other people’s lenses. I want to decipher actors’ expressions and writer’s/director’s messages and points of view. I want to feel what writers, directors and actors felt, while making these shows.
I’m not interested in seeing show’s events or characters through the lenses of my own experiences, biases or opinions. I have to admit though, it’s hard not to. Sometimes it’s even impossible.
I’m not interested in seeing show’s events or characters through the lenses of my own experiences. and yet, that is the only thing that you have and is uniquely yours, even being somebodies therapist, you can only try to understand a person but can not see it through the patient’s lenses. you really can not walk in “somebodies’ else shoes”. but do not get me wrong, i do understand what you are saying and what you want and respect your opinions (and enjoy hearing them also) i must say here, i do love and admire your super analytical mind, and many times feel that to get into a discussion with opposite views to your killer-analyses is most likely futile, but… it does not hurt to try. ha-ha.
on the issue of art. i am talking about objective art (which is recognized as the highest form of art) and i think you are more inclined to see it as subjective art and thus want to penetrate into the subjectivness of the artist.
the topic of objective art versus subjective art has been discussed very widely, and it is almost as wide as politics. but neither of such topics are here on this forum up for discussion, which you would agree with me. (i hope)
“I don’t believe in coincidences, especially in a show of such high quality.” is probably my strongest reason for believing that the marriage is done. This is a show with consistently strong writing throughout. Ending with the pair remaining married simply does not make narrative sense unless there was sufficient build up / reconciliation, and there clearly wasn’t.
The conversations you cited seemed to be subtly but relentlessly put into the show. Even if we interpreted one conversation as a one-off (like the bar owner’s experience of divorcing his cheating wife), the fact that all of these conversations were written into the show does seem to indicate the arc of Dong Hoon and Yoon Hee’s marriage. Especially the things that Dong Hoon and Yoon Hee say themselves.
I’d add to your list above the things Yoon Hee says to Do Joon Young on the rooftop in Episode 12:
“Dong Hoon and I, do you know what kind of hell we’re living in? It’s hell for him to come home to a woman who had an affair with the man he despises. And it’s hell for me because I must endure his loathing. Beacuse of you, who Dong Hoon despises so much, I’m trying to make it look as if his family didn’t break up because of you, so if he curses me, I have to take it, and if he scolds me, I have to take it. I have to accept all of his loathing until it begins to feel that we’re breaking up not because of you, but because of me. That we’re breaking up because he has no affection left for me at all. Waiting until he can see it that way, that is the last thing I can do for Dong Hoon.”
The show never revisits this conversation, or shows a reversal of Yoon Hee’s plan…so I think of this conversation as a foreshadowing of what actually happened.
I’ve cited a few of my interpretations on the final scene in previous posts, I’ll add another one below, a meta one this time, something I’ve written in parts from previous threads, and to ride on your theme on coincidences…
A couple of scenes before the final coffee shop scene, Ki Hoon was watching a movie that Yu Ra was playing in. Prior to that, in ep 8, we saw Yu Ra audition for that movie role. Her audition lines included “It’s my eternal regret that I was born later than you, Department Head. But I still have a loan to repay. I will love you from now on, Department Head.”
Going back to the movie that Ki Hoon was watching in ep 16. We see how Yu Ra’s character is styled like Ji An (with her hair tied which she doesn’t usually do as Yu Ra), is pounding hard on the copier just as Ji An did in a number of scenes, and is wearing a coat similar in color tone to what Ji An would wear in the final scene. (Pic attached below for reference.) Apparently, the movie character she was playing is made to be a meta representation for Ji An. We were already given two separate scenes to arrive at this conclusion.
And notice her dialogue this time: “Do you know why I’m always sick? Because there are so many people I hate. I thought about when I wasn’t sick. When I was in love.” She then stands up to point at the Dept. Head: “So I decided to love you starting today. You bastard.” An allusion to how she was called a “bitch” by DH. Then she moves to the copier, “I will try to love you more passionately.” Then she broke the 4th wall and addressed the movie audience: “Love is surging up.” And then a few moments after we get to see DH and JA reunite at the coffee shop. Coincidence? Filler scenes? I take it as one of the many hints the PD has thrown at us on how he wanted us to interpret the ending, or his story in general.
DH told JA that she brought him back to life, and I believe that’s exactly what’s happened.
The eldest brother seems to be in a process of reconciliation with his wife. The youngest brother finally started writing again. Yoo-ra periodically stops by the bar, so she is still around. In the end, both of them will get their women, so to speak.
DH will get his, and it’s not going to Yoon-hee.
MariaF, I really enjoy the way you put things. 🙂
What you wrote reminded me of omma’s birthday party and her wish – she wished that before she died, she would see all her boys living happily in pairs. (Netflix’s subtitles). Viki’s subtitles say her wish is “That before I die you all find your spouses and that I see you getting along well with them before I die.”
Sang Hoon and Ae Ryun are headed that way even before the time skip. After the time skip, Ki Hoon and Yoo Ra are still on each other’s minds, and Dong Hoon and Ji An have just seen each other in the coffee shop.
This is just a quick update for everyone who’s been concerned about not hearing from BE.
I’m happy to confirm that he’s ok, he’s just been spending a lot of time painting while recovering from his back surgery. Also, he says that he’s finding himself in a rather non-verbal, worded out phase, which is also part of the reason he hasn’t been commenting on the Open Threads lately. He apologizes for worrying everyone.
I’ve told BE that he can come back and comment on the OTs anytime, so we might still have his commentary at some later point in time. You can subscribe to email notifications on this post (top left envelope icon above the comment box), so that you won’t miss his commentary, if/when he does manage to post!
KFG ❤️
I have missed BE’s insightful commentary so I’m glad to know you’re ok! Recover well and take care, no hurry to force words out when you can’t!
I was indeed worrying. Thanks so much for letting us know. To @BE, no worries. Take care and we look forward to seeing you when you are up to it.
Good to hear that BE is OK. Get well soon. Some hibernation is nice sometimes!
Thanks Fangurl – I was really getting worried.
@BE – keep the faith baby! Thinking of you and take care of that back!
And just like that, we have a nicely wrapped up, open-ended and optimistic ending to My Mister. As discussed on this site before, well-done endings are a rare find in kdramas, so these 2 episodes being able to deliver the essence still is a bookend to a masterpiece of a show. I’ll spare some thoughts with references to topics discussed in previous open threads:
Define the relationship between Dong Hoon and Ji An
Firstly, what a transformation these 2 had, from the beginning up till the very end, as individuals and as a pair. Both of them living close-by, hence taking the same subway home to the same neighbourhood is the so-called coincidence, or serendipity that brought the 2 together. Now, how would you categorise their relationship fostered through this period? Romantic love? Platonic love? Romantic friendship? Agape?
To me, I thought it was a very clear display of familial love from Dong Hoon to Ji An at least. Perhaps his son being far away rendered him as such, he couldn’t find somewhere to put his love, the love a father would normally have for his child. As her supervisor, he treated Ji An no differently from his other subordinates, even though others looked down on her for being a quiet, lonely and vulnerable-looking temp staff. Just a mark of a decent supervisor in any company, as Ji An had rightfully stated during Dong Hoon’s director nomination testimonial at the end of episode 12.
Beyond that, I always saw Dong Hoon like a surrogate father figure of sorts for Ji An. Crucially, in the moments when he clasped on his wiretapped mobile brought close to his mouth, gingerly and gently encouraging a call from a missing runaway and when he sat across wordlessly after enduring the verbal tirade of a feverish, starving and tired girl, returned and too familiar with how society usually treated her. I’ll link to Dennis’ comment in the review of My Mister who echoed my sentiments and the supporting relevant quotes during my 1st watch – https://thefangirlverdict.com/2018/07/13/review-my-mister-my-ahjussi/comment-page-1/#comment-80828
No doubt, Ji An to Dong Hoon is a different angle altogether. I did think Ji An felt some semblance of romantic love for Dong Hoon, especially since she didn’t deny or attempt to hide any questions about whether she liked him or not. Always a resounding yes, from Yoon Hui to the director interviewing board. Some have said Ji An lacked the experience receiving sincere love of any kind, so it wasn’t surprising that she defaulted Dong Hoon’s level of care and concern for her as romantic.
Therefore, the relationship between Dong Hoon and Ji An in my mind felt like something I had seen before – an older man and a young girl who started off as strangers, formed an unlikely but emotional relationship with father-daughter-like dynamics, from video games (The Last of Us – Joel and Ellie) to movies (Logan – Wolverine aka Logan and X-23 aka Laura) and tv shows (Hawkeye – Clint Barton and Kate Bishop). The only difference compared to the e.g.s I have listed would be My Mister felt more lived-in, like the vibe of the people of Hugye neighbourhood and Jeong Hui’s bar could be recreated easily in all our lives.
I would say that the goodbye, after the heart-wrenching events of Ji An’s granmother passing and funeral felt so earned, both consenting to a cathartic, comforting and warm embrace and both responding to the words of encouragement face-to-face. Such a great callback to the one-sided attempts before. I really, really loved the final scene where both of them meet again after a while, healed and in a better, more fulfilling place. Dong Hoon making strides in his own business and Ji An offering to treat him for the next meal no questions asked 😊
I also had this take after finishing the show! That it was a fatherly/benevolent protector relationship but also two way soul awakening. Didn’t get a romantic vibe. It was after I watched the show that I started reading the blog posts about the nape stares and holding hands haha. Sounds convincing too yet I don’t feel the romantic connection. Interesting that the same show can play out so well that it supports different interpretations, both of which are satisfyingly convincing!
As someone who generally doesn’t hear OSTs much – or I should say, soundtracks don’t make it into my consciousness, usually – I found this OST a perfect match to the tone and action in the show. Hauntingly beautiful, it offered great punctuation points to emotions and development, without being heavy handed. I never tired of the songs, even those we heard frequently, i.e. Grown Ups.
I also love the artwork in the opening titles (I don’t know the technical term.)The animations, drawn from live photos, are beautiful, and capture Lee Sun Kyun’s and IU’s gaits perfectly. Sixteen episodes in, and I still watched the intro intermittently. (That’s rare.)
I appreciate all of your thoughtful, and heartfelt, comments on this Watch. I wish I could add something pithy, or different, myself, but I’m afraid doing so will just turn on my tears again. 😢 The problem is real! 😉 This was my second watch, and it was as powerful as the first.
Yeah, the OST is really great. ‘Grown Ups’ is a standout – I get thrown back into the emotions and mood of the show just upon hearing it. Reading the translation for the lyrics adds another (depressing) layer to it as well. It’s pretty much a reflection of Ji An’s state at the beginning of the show.
Besides it, “Dear Moon” was another standout. The lyrics were written by IU, and she goes a bit into her thoughts about it, which I really enjoyed – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KShrXA2810&t=439s
@Pixaiated – the video is wonderful! Both in IU’s discussion about the lyrics in Dear Moon and her rumination about the kind of adult she’d like to be. Thank you so much for sharing it.
Agree, Leslie! The OST totally took me by surprise the first time I watched the show. It added SO much to the entire experience. The melancholic nature of some of the songs, the heart-pounding use of “Rainbow” when Dong Hoon says, “Lee Ji An. Call me.” from the movie theater and when he’s running to the taxi to finally go find her, and the heartfelt “Dear Moon” – all of them were wonderfully chosen and perfectly used. Just such a well-done show all around!
Agree agree, all the songs were wonderful. Grown Ups was played so many times yet never tired of it. So melancholy and yet hopeful. I don’t know what the lyrics mean but the song seems to say – “Life is hard, yes, but don’t give up”.
Shout out to KFG for pointing out moments that I missed, like how Ji An picked Dong Hoon’s voice out of a crowd and followed it. On Yoon Hui being so calm and non-judgmental about Ji An, I think over the course of knowing Ji An Yoon Hui probably already traversed the reactions of – Oh who is this girl, how dare she? – to realising that the truths Ji An shared with her helped YH also to break free from her self-deceptive haze and destructive behaviour towards Dong Hoon. YH also thanked Ji An for protecting DH and calling YH for help to control Joon Young, and appreciated that Ji An likes DH. And even if YH had wanted to keep the affair a secret, her own conscience wouldn’t let her. In the previous episode, Ki Hoon wasn’t even fishing, he was making a joke, but her long, painful silence and tears said the truth. She couldn’t even make an effort to hide it by brushing off with a laugh and saying “no, of course not!”. That to me said she wanted to unburden herself of the guilty secret. All of that culminated in the end to a determination to help Ji An and reveal the secret so nobody could be blackmailed anymore. I did wonder why, when revealing the affair to the police, the news of it got out in the office but I guess that’s how society works. Maybe that was also one of the reasons why DH decided to leave the company in the end, I actually didn’t peg him as starting his own business! I thought by personality he would like to go back to Design but still in a secure company job.
Good points, Elaine! Yoon Hee has her own redemptive arc which is so nice to see. She ends up in a better place herself, having come to her senses about the kind of man CEO Do Joon Young was, being willing to expose her affair to help Ji An, and even using her legal expertise to keep JA out of jail.
As far as how the news of the affair got out to the office, I think it’s because Kwang Il has already sent the USB drives to Dong Hoon…and once those recordings were “out there” news probably spread pretty quickly.
One of things this show made me wonder and want to think about in-depth, is how a man like Dong Hoon, who has lived life righteously (as one is expected to), is upstanding and has always been kind and compassionate, is so unhappy and tied down and worn out in his life. Doesn’t this hold true in life as well!?
It make me think that probably the best way to live your life is to be true to yourself, maybe try to maintain a balance between being a little selfish – by doing what you feel will make happy versus what you think is the right thing to do as perceived by society, while being kind and compassionate at all times. Gosh, what a conundrum!!
In this context, I also feel the show could have shown Dong Hoon coming to terms with his emotions/feelings for Ji An … I understand that he always has a very understated way about him, but choosing to go along again with the general flow of life at the end of the show and not trying to have Ji An close by with him even in physical proximity (after their time apart of course which i felt was also necessary for them to self heal), a person who understands him/ is his soulmate and maybe much more, felt again like reverting back to his old nature of just carrying on with life.
I would have liked it more, had his life journey made him realise that he needs to overtly make efforts to seize his own happiness/ desires, in his own understated ways of course.
Probably that’s what i’ll imagine he’ll do eventually, is my interpretation of the open ending of the show.
Indeed, after all he went through, he still has the pictures of his “perfect” family on his desk and he still tries to keep up appearances of a family life while talking with his subordinates and his friend at the cafe. I don’t see that much of a progress here and I can’t see how can he be happy like this. It’s great that he is a boss now and he’s making lots of money, but isn’t he all alone? How can this be happiness, as he promised?
There are those who don’t see it as an open ending at all, and I’ve eventually come to appreciate why that is so, after having read the analysis of others. There are so many clues that the PD planted all throughout that reveal his intentions. There are too many to mention in one post, but I’d focus on a few things. First is the very exact dilemma you mentioned – DH seemed to not have progressed at all in his story arc if he remained passive and unable to pursue what would truly make him happy. So for him to have truly healed and progressed from his “life sentence of earnestness,” it would only make narrative sense if one is to conclude that upon meeting Ji An again, he would now fervently pursue her.
And the last scene also hinted on that heavily. Throughout the show, DH never initiated any form of physical contact with Ji An, as he was still married and was rightfully setting a boundary. In the last scene, he initiated the handshake, which lasted for 32 seconds. For all intents and purposes, that was him holding JA’s hands, as you don’t typically shake hands for 32 seconds. And the fact the camera had focused on DH gripping her hands so tightly.. Then if you’d recall in ep 13, he couldn’t even text “Thank you” back to Ji An for fear that it would lead her on. This time upon initiating the handshake, the first thing he uttered was “Thank you.” From these two acts, Ji An got the cue that DH is now a free man, and is now ready to move forward with her. That is why from being tentative and shy herself a while back, she now got the courage to ask him out for dinner.
Wow, with all due respect, I really disagree with this interpretation of events at the end. I don’t think it’s unambiguously signaling he’s going to pursue or move forward with her at all.
I would see it the same way if indeed he was a free man, but to me the photos and the conversations with his subordinates and friend don’t indicate he’s free, only maybe sepparated but still married.
I’ve seen this in other k-dramas, it seems to be quite common in korean culture, spuses that are not living together but are still married for the sake of their children, because apparently having divorced parents is seen as a flaw of the children.
But if somebody else has another opinion, I’m willing to listen as I do think that DH had deep feelings for JA.
I think the show has also hinted of their divorce. The photos of his wife and son at his new office (without him) are a stark contrast to the photos of all 3 of them that the show has focused on a number of times, both at his old office desk and at his living room. Those new photos closed the story arc for Yoon Hee – she’s now living with Ji Seok in the US, seemed happy on her own terms, and has remained in gracious terms with DH, as they should be.
And many has mentioned the mistranslation by Netflix of DH’s conversation with his friend at the coffee shop. Throughout the show, DH has been consistent in referring to Yoon Hee as “wife.” In the coffee shop, he referred to her as “my kid’s mom” for the first time, which many has pointed out was mistranslated by Netflix to still read as “wife.”
i am still not convinced that it is the end for dh and yoon hee, at least at this point. what man, who’s divorced has photos of his ex at his office? i have seen many divorced couples, never do they display photos of their ex’s. children – yes, but not with the other parent. it’s just too painful, one does not want to look at it. you say he did not have a single photo of his son alone? when you have photos of people – these are connections in your life, connections that are still active in your heart even if the person (or pet) is already gone from this world. therefore, it looks to me like this is an open question still, could go any place in the future.
and i do not agree that he did not move on – i think he moved on big times, he left the security of his old job, where he was loved and appreciated (this requires courage, risk taking, determination, trust your own self and ability...) he established a successful business and even was able to get all his subordinates (a sign of true leadership) to give up their jobs and move with him into the unknown – at least at the beginning.
his personal life – this takes time to heal, one year not enough. he can not rush it, there is no switch that he can turn off and turn on.
in relationship to ja, they both have deepest feelings for each other, as they both were pillars of strength for the other – “fighting” was their slogan. each was present for the other at the lowest moments of their lives, (the strength of such a connection is the most solid)and opening up visions of new directions for each other. this is no “small potatoes”, the bond between them is deep and enduring, they know each other’s souls, they will remain in each other’s hearts until the end of their lives. that does not mean they will become lovers, the level of their connection transcends the physical. i am not making a decision here that it does not have a potential to develop into something different. after all life is like a flowing river, any specific spot in it never has the same water.
Yes, for me too, the pictures of his wife suggest that they are still married (even though there aren’t pictures of the three of them together). In my culture (Europe)it would be strange to have pictures of your ex. wife at your office, but maybe not in Korea?
So a married man holding a young girl’s hand on the street for 32 seconds and agreeing to have dinner alone is not strange to your culture, is it?
Good point, I didn’t consider that :)!
i’ll play the devil’s advocate (it happens to me sometimes).
so this married man (the ultimate GOOD man, we all agreed on that) had lunches and dinners with this young girl (even that he thought that it will be viewed wrong in the eyes of the society), he made sure to ride the train with her after work, to walk her home, to introduce her to his friends, to protect her…while still being married and not considering divorce at that time, right? why? isn’t he the profoundly DECENT man? do you think he suddenly forgot about being THAT DECENT? did he suddenly lost his head? a big no. a father that would ache and care for a daughter this way would also act this way. i am sure that in his deepest inner self, he did not consider it wrong, quite to the contrary – he being his usual self, cared for another “pitiful human, pitiful kid”. along the way his feelings and attachment became more complicated and more intense, i’ll give you that. but he still saw her as a kid, may be a kid that is growing into a young woman, but too young for him, that is how i see it.
i did contemplate his song during the period she was on the run and he was trying to find her. it was clearly a sign of missing her. but it does not have to be as missing the woman he’s in love with. a father figure, older brother, even close friend would miss her, especially under these circumstances, knowing that she is in danger, she might be beyond miserable and suffering, + being used to her presence by his side and being used to take care of her. if and when it is gone, she would be missed.
so when he finds her again, he’s happy, holding her hand for 32 seconds… they’ll have a meal together (now she is working, has a salary, can show him that she is HAPPY and can afford to buy him dinner, for all the dinners he bought her)- this is something they used to do, what is strange or different this time? he’s marriage did not stop him before…
every coin has two sides, we simply see it from different perspectives.
He still saw her as a kid, may be a kid that is growing into a young woman, but too young for him, that is how i see it.
This is how I see it as well. But this is not about how I see it, but what the show has thrown at us.
True, everyone can miss any other person regardless if family, friend, or lover. That’s a given. But the point is how this feeling was presented by the show. Dramas having scenes showing a character singing a love song while at the same time, interspersed with scenes of the object being missed is almost always used to convey a romantic longing. If the show wanted to convey the feeling of a father missing a daughter, I’d think it will use other means, (common scenes in movies I can think of are that of a parent holding a picture of the daughter and then showing him to be in deep thought..) but not through karaoke singing and using a love song at that. It can happen, but it would look absurd and I’d say it would be even a poor choice of narrative device on the part of the Director.
do you want me to believe that the show wanted us to see this “straight like a ruler” character, that his core values are decency and deep rooted kindness, suddenly lost all these qualities + his head over this young girl? or may be this show wanted us to THINK deeper? that is why actions, emotions are NOT painted here with just one color, but a mix of colors, with various effects, different possibilities of seeing them, and multiple possibilities of interpreting them. this is not a one sided, rigid take on life, even that it is a korean drama.
Interesting point of view. But although DH is shown to be full of decency and deep rooted kindness, he did take the money at
the beginning, something his family and friends didn’t think he was capable of. So people sometimes do things out of their character if the right setting appears.
And what was the setting with JA? At first DH found himself entangled with this girl, who made him buy her dinner. Then he started to help her, encourage her, reluctantly, then eagerly, have more dinners with her, wait for her to go home together and… of course, he didn’t tell his wife about this new „business”. That to me is walking into the dangerous zone. Yet he walked in, apparently because he thought of her as a kid, so helping and having dinner with a kid shouldn’t be a problem, right? (and indeed it shouldn’t)
However, she was not a kid, but a woman, and a very beautiful one, a woman in need, who happened to understand him more than anyone, who supported him and actively fought for him. Still, if his marriage was strong, he might have gotten away with it (although I still believe he would have been in the dangerous zone). But his marriage was not ok, and his heart was empty. So when the heart is empty and you go around with such a woman, pretending there’s nothing wrong with it because she’s just a kid, unexpected things might happen. You might end up with that empty heart full again… And after watching the drama and reading the comments, I’m inclined to think the unexpected happened for DH and he ended up falling for JA, although he kept himself in check until the end and didn’t act upon his feelings.
alexandra, he DID NOT take the money. he was in a shock, understandably, did not know how to handle it on the spot, also understandably. he put it for now into the drawer, to think about it later. was he tempted? yes. who wouldn’t be? tempted temporarily is not a crime. i truly believe that he would not end up pocketing the money, no matter how appealing it would be. but he was not given a chance to make any decision on the issue, – the money was stolen, remember, stolen by ja from his drawer. he was so worried about it that he returned to the office the same late evening. so he got entangled with her without his consent, not by his design, but truly unfortunately found himself in the most impossible situation. and in my opinion he did not perceive her as a woman for the longest time, and then when he did (may be, probably) he still did not see her as a potential woman for himself.
in regards to his marriage, he did not share with his wife any of his troubles, not to trouble HER. and even if his marriage would have been intact, i believe he would have still behaved the same way with ja, and would not have shared it with his wife (remember, he did not share personal things even with his brothers, with whom he was very close). all this to spare them the worries for him.
but you can not blame somebody for a thought, temptation, but no actual action (of stealing the money). i believe that after consideration, he would not have taken or used this money.
I see your point, but to me putting the money in the drawer seems like taking it for now to consider it later. Not reporting the moment he got them might have put him in a lot of trouble, and he admitted that later on. Anyway, that’s part of the beauty of the show, that viewers can interpret things differently.
Also, as a married woman myself, I strongly believe a marriage cannot be intact if one of the spouses keeps important things from the other one (and going around one’s wife back would be a misjudgment in any marriage). I think some of the viewers idealize DH too much, in other dramas, many of the things discussed here would have been considered romantic interest, but not here, since he is perceived as the king of platonic or filial love 🙂
as far as i remember, the envelope arrived late afternoon, something like around 5pm or even a bit later. who would still be at work by the end of the day? he also has to decide what authority would be appropriate to deal with it. his direct supervisor mr. yoon, the skunk, or the ceo, his rival for example can turn it around and implicate him, and so can others who do not like him (this was already established). so he has to consider very carefully. such a rush decision can backfire big time. so taking it for now to consider it later. – is the right decision for that moment and in no way indicates that he would end up taking the money. taking it for now does not mean keeping it.
i do agree with you a 100% that keeping anything from your partner is not acceptable. unfortunately, many couples are not a 100% honest, that is human nature, especially with white lies, to keep the peace in the family for example. i do not believe that there is a person who is ALWAYS (and i mean always) truthful and open with parents, partners, siblings, friends…
and especially in dh’s case, he is very introverted, he keeps everything bottled up, and especially his brothers talk about it. that is his nature, but the root of it is his deep concern for the people he cares about. it’s not that i think that it actually works for him, or that it is the right way, and eventually the drama shows us that he must change his ways.
Wow, good insight, that in other dramas many of the moments in MM would have been considered as romantic interest.
Alexandra, I think you’re right – he kept himself in check. And after the time skip, when they were each healed and happy, anything could happen between them. I think there’s a LOT of evidence in the show that DH and YH have divorced, and I wrote it all here if you’re interested in seeing all the conversations and moments that, to me, are “clues”:
https://forums.soompi.com/topic/408082-drama-2018-my-mister-%EB%82%98%EC%9D%98-%EC%95%84%EC%A0%80%EC%94%A8-best-drama-at-2019-55th-baeksang-arts-awards/page/338/#comment-22299210
*when Dong Hoon and JI An were each healed and happy
Thank you for the link! I read all of it last night and became even more impressed with quality of the show. After reading K-fangirl verdict that this was not a romance and watching the show once I was a 3:1, but after reading all the comments and rewathcing some of the scenes I became a 3:3 🙂
Ah hahaha, you found @actionscript’s matrix! He will be thrilled! 🙂 🙂
Alexandra, also, Here’s the fan site that was put together after the show ended. It has many analyses, deep dives, and discussions (it’s the best of the Soompi Forum, curated, after the show ended in 2018). I think you’ll enjoy reading through some of the articles! https://givemeslippers.wordpress.com/
I only watched the show in April but the Soompi Forum and Give Me Slippers have been so helpful in processing the show and the things I missed. And being able to join in on group watches like this one!
Thank you, I knew about this one and read many of its posts, but the soompi forum was even more enlightening for me because it directly responded to some of my queries.
I also enjoied the little work of fiction called The Road Back to You:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/34061467?view_full_work=true
The Road Back to YouSideCar_SideHugsSummary:Conversations and events during the time skip (and beyond) as Dong Hoon and Ji An find their way back to each other.
Absence diminishes mediocre passions and increases great ones, as the wind extinguishes candles and fans fires.
– Francois de La Rochefoucauld
Haha!! Finally, something I wrote was referenced outside of those “nape-stare” posts. 😂
Based on my observations, people tend to move up only after several re-watches, because only then would one tend to discover more of the various clues and breadcrumbs scattered by the PD all over the show, and to also appreciate more of the very limited, thus very subtle, facial expressions and body language that the actors were allowed to utilize to keep to the very stoic nature of their characters. Most usually keep to a 1-1 or 2-2 at most in the first two watches, and would tend to move up only after a few more re-watches as one begins to connect the clues and understand how everything fits together.
So when the heart is empty and you go around with such a woman, pretending there’s nothing wrong with it because she’s just a kid, unexpected things might happen.
After watching the show many times, I think this is exactly what happened! Like Mr Darcy in Pride and Prejudice, he was “in it” before he knew it. But of course he didn’t act on it…until possibly after the time skip…if he were a free man.
Just to clarify, I don’t think Dong Hoon was throwing away any of his decency by simply having feelings for Ji An. He never did act on them; in fact he avoided Jung Hee’s bar for weeks in Ep 16. He tried his darndest to set boundaries. He kept his integrity to the end.
But the show does show us that he thinks about Ji An, looks for her, runs to her, barely contains himself when he has to say goodbye to her over the phone, and is annoyed when she’s not calling him during the time skip. There are many more examples like this that the show puts in. It’s weird, right?
Contrast this with his actions toward Yoon Hee: we don’t see him looking for Yoon Hee, spending time with her, or even talking much to her. After his impassioned monologue to Ji An when he demands his slippers back, he goes home and he and YH have a super awkward, silent dinner.
He is completely engaged and “alive” when it comes to Ji An, especially by Episodes 13 – 16.
So, if Dong Hoon and Yoon Hee are divorced at the end, then DH is a free man and his goodness/ integrity/ decency would remain intact if pursuing Ji An would make him happy.
and is annoyed when she’s not calling him during the time skip. it seems that the time skip was pretty lengthy. and why didn’t she call him, after all this? and why couldn’t he call her, after he is a free man and his wife left? and why didn’t she contact him when she moved back from busan?
And no need to be cynical about it, some mild non-shippers surely can change their minds when faced with so many good arguments 🙂
Oops, sorry, I commented before I read this!
I love how Dong Hoon and Ji An keep looking at their linked hands, even though the camera keeps their hands below the frame.
Hi Alexandra (and PriM), I do think the contrast is important here. The three photos of only Yoon Hee and JI Seok are on his desk, but he has removed the old family photo of the three of them. There’s no evidence that they are still a threesome, there’s no longer a family photo on his desk. Also, as I mentioned above, the Netflix subtitles are wrong 🙂 . When he’s talking to his friend at the cafe, he doesn’t actually say “my wife and son” but “my kid and his mother”. After calling Yoon Hee his “wife” (chib saram) the entire show up until now, to call her “my kid’s mother” (ae omma) is a significant change!
And I totally agree with you – he’s all alone! But if he is indeed divorced, then he’s free to go after his own happiness. And IF that happiness is Ji An….she just appeared back into his life. 🙂
And IF that happiness is Ji An…. the IF is the operative word here. i hear you all, and you might be right and might not. i am neutral, just showing another side, another possibility, but appreciate all arguments.
but… we, all of us without exception, are talking with the IF. so let’s keep that in mind.
Absolutely! I appreciate you showing us another side, really. I totally get the IF, since I was there. That’s why I write “If” in there when I can!
As I always say, my life would be much simpler had I never seen a loveline there. 🙂
Yeah, I feel that the show’s overarching message is a combination of both Ji An’s (Learning the importance of relationships, opening up) and Dong Hoon’s (at the same time, the importance of balancing that with living for yourself and not being overly self-sacrificial) arcs.
I would argue that Dong Hoon does overtly make those efforts to seize his own happiness/desires, though. He quit his job and started his own company – an extremely risky endeavor the old Dong Hoon would never have done, given the expectations of his family. The show is subtle on this, but he’s also divorced from his wife, another thing that he might not have done to keep up the image of a perfect family.
The last step, as you said, is coming to terms and accepting his emotions / feelings for Ji An, and having her be part of his life. I personally feel that it’s the most logical next step / conclusion for his character.
Very well said! Indeed, striking on his own and finally divorcing Yoon Hee are on themselves already quite “out-of-character” for DH. These have proven how he has finally learned to take control of his life and to move out of his comfort zones. One final loose end to tie is his relationship with Ji An. All 3 of the above themes in DH’s story arc were tightly and subtly resolved in the post-time skip scenes.
What a lovely, lovely, heartbreaking, heartwarming show. This show brings you to the depths of despair and builds you up again. I have watched this a few times now and it’s my all time favourite drama but I still felt all the feels which, imo, is high praise.
Theres too much to say so I won’t say it but Sondia’s Adult always breaks me. And for an ambiguously romantic/love pairing, Dong Hoon’s “If you get to know a person nothing to they do bothers you. And I know you” might be one of the most romantic lines ever.
Im so glad for everyone who came on this My Ajusshi journey with us. May we all find comfort in our lives. May we all find a community like the Hugye group. May we all find a soulmate and protector like Dong Hoon and Ji-an were to each other. May we all experience and give the power of community, kindness and humanity to one another. See you all at future group watches or around on the site ♥️♥️♥️
amen.
This show was such a surprise on every level, the plot developments were surprising and yet the psychology and empathy shown to each character was so deep and true. The emotions, the growth journey of releasing society’s and your own expectations of yourself, the emotional bond not just between the two main characters but the complex web of friends and family around them. Masterful, touching and poignant! I identified soooo much with Dong Hoon and how he has been suffering through life trying to do the right thing. What perfect timing to watch this show as I am going through my own season of crisis, self understanding and change, hopefully to a happier place.
elaine, i wish you strength and light on your own road to self understanding and change. welcome it. FIGHTING.
A tear came to my eye and a lump to my throat. Thank you Eda!!!
elaine, although we are all separated by forests, deserts, oceans, mountains – we are a small special community, and just like we deeply care about the characters in those dramas that we share, we sure care about each other. although we can not hold your hand, give you an encouraging hug, watch together a favorite drama – we are here for you, please, remember.
FIGHTING.
I hope this show – and life – can bring you comfort in this transitional time! Fighting!!
Dong Hoon and Ji An truly are unlikely inspirations! Hope everything works out for you and you get some good clarity.
This one was on my destination list for a long time and, thanks to KFG’s editorial choice, I finally got the chance to see this modern classic. It is, so far, my favorite of all of the group watches (haven’t missed one yet), and definitely into my top ten drama list. High. I wasn’t able to participate in the ongoing discussions much, to my detriment, but appreciated the conversations when I could drop in.
Ten Things That I Loved About “My Mister”
(1) Its enigmatic title. Although this is a case where something is truly lost in translation – “My Mister” just doesn’t capture the feeling of “My Ahjussi” – one is intrigued before frame one. How is – or will be – he hers? Even IU’s expression on her Netflix photo begs the question.
(2) It’s a show about adults, who act like adults, and that never treated us as anything less than adults. The adults don’t act well all the time, or wisely, or reasonably, but they’re not kids. With few exceptions, they weren’t exaggerated stereotypes or tropes, either. All had there good sides and bad sides, and good days and bad days. Just like life. And we were expected to be OK with that.
(3) A realistic dramaworld… Every set seemed lived-in and real and was gorgeously photographed. I want to hang out in Jung-hee’s place, where everybody seems to know your name.
(4) …except when it wasn’t. The show only pulled out a few camera tricks, and since they we’re used sparingly, they were effective and fun. I especially liked the blurry drunk scenes, which upon reflection, were maybe more realistic than I was originally thinking.
(5) To OTP or not to OTP. As much as I enjoyed the back-and-forth in our commenting community on the precise nature of Dong-hoon and Ji-ah’s relationship, I liked the ambiguity of the show’s presentation of their relationship as it evolved. And an ending open enough to allow each viewer to imagine what the future will bring our protagonists.
(6) All of the relationships mattered. I cared just as much about how things were going to go with Ki-hoon and Yu-ra, or Jung-hee and Gyum-dik, as our main protagonists. (Although after this last episode I want to smack Ki-hoon, as we say here, upside the face.) And bonus points for not introducing all of the main characters in episode 1; it was nice seeing things develop at their own pace.
(7) Fantastic families. First of all, the two moms were great – and absolutely essential to the story. But for personal reasons this year especially, it was the brothers that really got to me. I’ve never seen in any fiction anywhere such a wonderful exploration of what it means to be brothers.
(8) Tight writing that never wavered. Things fit together so well throughout, and there was an economy in the plotting that was refreshing. Although I’m not a fan of the workplace power struggle as a general plot point, it was well done and reasonably interesting in this case, and layered nicely into what really mattered (the personal stories). On top of that, we got a great rumination of the tension between success at work and the preservation of one’s soul and ego. And they stuck the ending!
(9) Outstanding performances all around. But I mostly want to talk about IU. It was fascinating to see such an understated – but all the more heart-wrenching – performance for such a worldly character. IU’s eyes were practically a character unto themselves. And as much as I got, I know I’ll have to watch it again (someday? Maybe?) to really appreciate how she pulled it off. (I actually do plan to re-watch just the lengthy funeral sequence as an example of this in miniature.)
(10) The journeys of Ji-an and Dong-hoon. From “It’s easy to be nice when you’re rich” to JI-an’s astonishment upon being welcomed, without artifice, into Dong-hoon’s wider circle (I do think that Ji-an and Jung-hee will see each other on holidays in the future). And, although relatively comfortable by many standards, Dong-hoon’s finally coming to grips with the realities of his own world.
Thanks again to all who posted and to Kfangurl for hosting the party.
So beautifully said, all of this! Totally agree that all the relationships mattered, and that the performances and writing were of the highest caliber. And if you go smack Ki Hoon upside the face, I’m right there with you. 🙂
I really liked how this ended, they both got to heal and still kept to the promise of when they bump into each other in the future they will be happy to see each other.
I was soo sad when gran passed, I cried so much. I know it was inevitable that it would happen before the end of the show but I hadn’t expected it to happen when it did. I am very happy how all that turned out though (I even cried when the eldest brother paid for all the funeral flowers and called people to come so her gran could have the big gathering she deserved) Ji-an deserved to have so many people care about her and come and pay respects to her and her Gran.
I am glad that Dong Hoon finally was able to release his emotions and cry for all that did not go the right way in his life. That he was able to start healing after everything was done and he was alone and able to do just that. He definitely deserved to cry his eyes out.
Was relieved that Gwang Il finally did the right thing. It needed to happen. I kinda figured he might do what was right in the end by the fact that he stole the computer before anyone else could get it and would not let anyone know he had it. He even listened to all of the recordings. Glad he found one that made him realize that he was worth more than he thought he was.
Ending was great. Would definitely recommend this show to others to watch. This was my first watch of this show. I might watch it again in the future.
Kim, you hit on every single thing that touched me and made me cry, too, the first time I watched Ep 16! Kwang Il’s turnaround, halmeoni’s funeral, Sang Hoon’s generosity and Dong Hoon’s cathartic crying…it was all so powerful. Show was deeply affecting and impacting in such an unexpected, creative way.
So many memorable moments in these last episodes! I have a soft spot for redemption arcs, so I was very moved by Gwang Il’s reaction to the conversation Ji An and Dong Hoon have about him. I also liked how the end credits show that he is still running a loan agency, but now the focus is on helping people in financial need.
End credits? Didn’t see ’em on Netflix….😢
It was there on netflix, unless there’s regional differences. It’s also very easy to miss / not obvious though, since it’s basically just a banner with the words: “I was once in the same situation as you. I will help you as if we were family.” – Yeongkwang Loans
That explains it. I think I must have had something in my eyes at that moment….
where was that? i did not see it, did i miss it?
I think they are referring to this scene near the tail end of show’s end credits..